2019 - (Panel) Mentoring and Coaching - Daniel Ayala

this topic comes up I don't think they get three security people together more than ten minutes without getting into a discussion about their hiring practices how to break into the industry or or mentoring how to grow and so we were thinking about what to do for work besides we started putting off some of the organic discussions around mentoring everybody

first question we're going to talk about which is what does a mentoring of you [Music]

have a microphone in your hand

[Music]

[Music]

hey my name is Chris Abby and I actually work with red Canary here locally and so your history and the history men Oh much higher I have to talk much louder now so now I hear my voice that's very annoying so I came from Federal service on public public side so school districts like that we're here locally with the arm IFC and the ISS a chapters times of the mentorship there it's kind of where actually do you have a mentor I do I have a couple mentors and I'll probably go into a little bit more time I described in that course yeah great Jean hi my name is Jane McGowan like Chris I got started in cybersecurity when I

joined the Navy my very first command I showed up on the ship it's an old mainframe system and I was the automatic data processing security officer so I was really that's a glorified name for the guy who reset your password and and so this was you know maybe maybe thirty years ago so I've seen a number of different iterations of technology and cyber security requirements and goals and objectives from different organizations and industries I do have a mentor I have a couple of them and like you I'm also have a couple of mentees that I try to continue to build relationships with great and I realized I didn't introduce myself my name is Daniela I am a recovery and seaso and

chief by the sea officer I spent most of my career in security and about 24 years in the security is always so now to network security so I've done just about everything through the courses that I now have a/c so as a service and privacy officer as a service company tonight that I'm building and as a result I get to see a lot of people that I get to talk to a lot of people and I found a lot of value and being able to share my experience with others and in the same way get advice and experience from others around me both in and out of the security industry so I guess let's go back to the

original question which is in your mind what mentor Jean you've got it so let's start with what is a mentor in your mind well to me a mentor is an individual that my my dad uses the phrase everybody needs a rabbi someone that you can go to with your particular specific challenges that you can one part you know event to mentor so mentor has to have good listening skills has to be able to remove themselves from necessarily the emotions of any given challenge and then be able to after listening and asking really good questions and helping clarify the challenges as well as alternatives to the potential solutions be able to help participate in in making decisions

directions and opportunities for individuals yeah so uh the reason why I was so cagey on the number of mentors I have is I just feel like mentorship it's just it's so it can be so wide and so broad in terms of what I mean I have books that I feel like those are sort of my mentors as well via huge communities just like these sides here Carly security is a you know si si oh wow all those things and just the conversations you're having here at communities like that there's aspects of mentorship as well you know you've inspired or something that someone else is doing you see success there and being able to kind of tap into

it I think it's just one of the big quality strengths of our at least our industry and so that's kind of why I like I mean I have mentors mentees teachers that even mentees we became mentors for me because of the success that they've seen so far I think if you're strictly talking about a formal then that should be something where you aren't getting the actual answers versus maybe a coaching where they're actually going to tell me what to do a real mentorship should be listening trying to make you think about what you want in your career and using the advice and the experience of the person that came before you instead of just getting

it true yeah I think you could open it fun an important point on the differences between mentoring and coaching I'll just repeat it as I think it was it's really about it what the mentoring is about my view is that mentoring is about helping people ask themselves the right questions that they can come up with their own answers versus coaching which is please help me up to a point where I need directly and put on a way to go one is the therapist how does that make you feel and the other is here I have a direct answer for you anyway is that fair assessment all right good so what is what is mentorship you look like how does it

operate and say when we have Chris what do you answer how does it how does mentorship happen you talked about books what are the vehicles are being used yes so on I think a lot of there's a lot of focus on that formal mentorship and that's why some people may be here to actually engage in some sort of mentorship because you know do I have to dedicate a week you know a month to dedicate to this person to have coffee with them to talk about their issues is like that and realistically with the amount of technology we have today the events that we have today I mean I some of my mentors like people who I consider my

horse I don't see him until conferences there Andy and we catch up and we talk I have I have a group of guys that I talked to about fatherhood and some of the things they're really struggling with and that's over Skype zoom or such a things and so I think just men it doesn't have to be that very rigid you know rigorous formal they engage in a relationship engagement like I can give me a day or give me an hour every month and I will give you an hour and Enlil will do homework afterwards so I think you can take different forms so something's quite formal how do you shape the relationship how do you define

that specifically with the person that you are that you're interacting with either as a mentor as a protege in in a formal situation I have I have a couple formal mentors where you know I've actually asked them I would like to talk to you a recurring basis so typically it's just that conversation and if you don't ask the question I mean don't be afraid of that now but if you don't have to question everything answer and so I think realistically like just going up if you see someone's successful in your career field or where you want to go aspirationally either in life or career is like that just asking this question okay I see what you're doing

I really value something that you were doing well and I would like to talk to you more about it do you have time for coffee and in letting it organically grow I think it's too often especially like nowadays especially when we start talking about hiring practices in some struggles I think we jump too quickly to like that you know hey I need a job and mentorship is not I need a job mentorship is I need to develop some aspect of my my whole person maybe aspect of your skill set maybe aspect but I mean I think mentorship has that depth unlike a coach or someone or a teacher who's teaching a subject I think has that depth with any kind of

cool person so I guess if we're to say the mentorship is a long game and not something that you're you go into seeking a quick return we're seeking a return at all correct I already I would it could be a long game I'm kind of that I'm kind of them enter our idea that mentorship where mentorship could happen at any point time and and realistically but I do agree with you inmate the whole idea that there's not only a an outcome like a specific measurable outcome it's like what you mentioned it's finding those answers and internally finding toll and I would add that you know mentoring can be spontaneous as well and one of the things you know while you were

talking one of the things that I was thinking is is very often when you're approaching someone you know sometimes sometimes it can be kind of off-putting a little bit if you walk up in you're like hey you don't know me I could be one step away from being a stalker but would you be my mentor you know people people sometimes are a little bit nervous about that but one of the things that I think would be a really great icebreaker for that is is just coming up and saying I'd really like to learn more about your journey and and how you've been able to achieve what you've achieved or how you got to where you are and and have a couple of

quick questions about that and that kind of breaks guys and that gets that going and then from some of those initial conversations you'll be able to tell if there's an opportunity that you get along well and out have a deeper more consistent regular relationship know so from the mentoring side I've always thought that sometimes you know people come out of the blue at various times in your life and you have an opportunity to be able to provide a level of men without necessarily having any type of formal title we do this at work all the time where we're influencers without authority and sometimes I think mentorship can happen in a similar manner

a lot of issues through change [Music]

keep on that path for maybe 30 days and let's revisit how you kill sin away what else immediately that little going to agree that it doesn't happen every day you can always just be nice to somebody and not impose your opinion too much and try to lead them to Socratic we don't know that it's great so we keep talking about it the people that were working with as managers and I think all of us are have mentor relationships in which we have protegees or mentees and the words are interchangeable but let's flip around the other side and say and then people all of us are or have been mentees to someone else correct so I guess since your microphone

you tell us a little bit about how you found your first mentor and how that interaction [Music] mentored somebody else and then saw a similar skill set personality set

Chris Jean thoughts on how you arrived with your first Mentors yeah so I mean with lack of resources like technology lack of education and you evolved I mean anyone who's into the public sector kind of feel that pain and something that it really came out of questions I started asking a lot of questions within the community forums of community groups and and the people who kind of respond the most it started becoming like hey you know we - we'll just make this for me you know but it was more of that like hey I really enjoyed your thought process I really enjoy what you're providing in this conversation could I meet with you on a more regular basis

and the big thing for me was to establish and I kind of like finalized that deal to close that deal it was really kind of saying this is the things I want to work on here's what I'm going to put in the relationship just to continue in there how did you figure out that the person had the skill sets or the or the the competencies that align with those objectives that you were just talking about a lot of them are just young some of them are public facing in terms of you know people who are working for the community a lot of them through engagement so you know the mentorship relationship survived after I've had

months of back-and-forth walking you through technology or phone or even a person is like that and just how they approach situations how they need situations like that so it's less than maybe that success or measurable criteria or how their thought process goes in today great now Jean and Chris you both said that you were we were both come out of the military at some point are there formal mechanisms and Denver's of where this area has a lot of military presence a lot of public presence other formal mechanisms of the military who were mentoring or for being a protege or is it that you have to find that on your own ie I think it's more formal mechanisms

of coaching especially especially in the military I personally view mentorship as a more personalized relationship between a couple of individuals and and in the military there's that's not really a methodology that's promoted I mean they're much more into discipline and agony so I I really good you know they they couldn't care less they want you to show up they want you to do your job that much at the end time wear the right uniform blah blah blah blah blah the way down the line now I developed those personalized relationships when I was in the military when I was in the Navy I met with you know senior enlisted folks and had those opportunities and it was

not anybody that was in my division that I was working for so I got you know that type of mentorship through an alternative channel while still serving in the military I think from my experience you know from the Air Force so we can have as much agony we had a lot of nice stuff we didn't have to run as far yes so this explains my my physique as well but as we it was more important so in looking there's a lot of coaching there's a lot of you know it's structured up you know hi all here's your supervisor your supervisor will then create a suitable reporting mechanism on your performance so I got what I found this is even in the

military I mean weak honest will sell I mean like military is all about full self they expect you to put a hundred percent of yourself your family your here baby and everything else that you have in your coming lip is all towards the common good in terms of you know the Air Force and Marines they're second things and so I think you find groups that you engage with it's similar to what we're doing here at me like we have these these community groups that we kind of here to or or gravitate towards this is somewhere in the military I mean I'm sure everyone has some different experience depending on their branch

so I guess let's take that you made the comment Chris about that when you would have some of these interactions there was it was also part of performance you were considered your performance was considered animals every discussion is as you come out in the world outside of the military careers have you found any challenges in mentorship through formal reporting structures where it might be the same person that evaluates you for your career through your job performance trying to get advice in that or do you use that as a structure for finding mentors and asking those types of questions or do you tend to go outside of that structure so I came to that last part of it in it and typically Southside

I'm having really good recording structures where just having really good conversations with management those types of things leadership there's always a risk I mean and I can guess a lot of that's a huge reason why we don't necessarily look for any structure for mentorship so because of that risk you know how do I go to my my director car someone who loves directly reporting to you tell them I can't do this work or I feel like I can't do this work well I'm struggling the a B and C done when the expectation is from the reporting structure or the form structure is you must get a TMZ done and where to yeah attend so I think it's I mean definitely

results may vary but depending on your structure who you're reporting to that relationships I like that this it's so much similar to like as we start looking out the community and we start going outside of it it's really building a deeper relationship and it's on both sides - I mean I feel like that mentorship opportunity that I've had with my CTO or my CIO or my chief legal wouldn't happen if I couldn't invest in a personal relationship as well yeah I agree and I think that there's value in looking both directions looking internally those that understand the context of your business of the world you're living in and the challenges that you face in a job

because maybe they have the job before and raised up in there alone but also looking outside not just outside the company but also outside the industry somebody who has fresh eyes come back to the board reporting discussion we're having earlier the folks on boards tend not to be in the industry so having and they can see things from a very different perspective same thing with mentors who are not part of security or not part of technology can give you a view of yourself and of your world that is very hard to see from inside the forest connect I grew on something you said so yeah is that they like that importance to is they make

that person may not be inside the field I mean how many people I mean I definitely on the panel here but how many people have a mentor or mentee who's not even in security hey we got one that there when we start with how many of you have amenities how do you have mentors let's start with Mentors 2030 percent yeah I know you do and how many of you are mentors for someone else about the same okay so now your question yeah so I mean going back to it like I have I have a really great group of people who are from real estate construction so I got which I never thought I would be but you know being on

a customer service side or success side now I mean it was super important in humanities their experience how they handle referrals how they handle and the day to day of working with customers was really important in really - yeah I think also as as security becomes more part of the business that we serve and less of a back office function the more we understand how business works in general the better we're going to be a little function yeah I wanted a I do want to loop back to the ENFP of the structure and out of the structure for you your experience because I feel like probably everybody engineer has found some sort of benefit from talking to somebody who's helped

them shape their lives or their careers so probably even if you don't have an informal mentorship you've probably been helped by somebody was just a positive and I say looking externally outside of a corporate position I do just ask people for their advice or their input on things sometimes it's bad but a lot of times it is really helpful and it really helps you wait at housing so just being open to other people's opinions killing your ego and asking what a genuine good answer would look like in their mind and weighing that against everything else but formally and it's just going to meetups talking to people in your organization great in your on your mind which is more

important I guess which is more valuable to start as a mentor start as a mentee does it not matter I think it's good to take advice any point in your career where you don't know what you're doing I think you should be seeking advice so probably in this chicken in the air today it's important to start with a mentor meeting you then you can be more effective as somebody who's influencing others and is trying to build up your community around your peers and I think I I think we start talking about that therefore we certainly won't formal mentor mentee really should not knowing kind of the not having a good example that you can kind of pair up

against I mean I think this is probably romantic relation that force career being a mentor so I think mentee is like you know seeing having those really good everyone has gone through an experience where they've grown up you know they either had a teacher so like that so I think it's not as I want to get away from that whole like formal there's a flag stuff in the ground but basically now I'm a mentor because but there's been teachers there's been parents there's things family friends those such things that had an impact and I want attend one thought from my experience about this as well I attended a men's group it was a a religious group I don't remember the

name of the book it's kind of a you know both curry and I remember it was about you know men's relationships with one another and one of the things that really stuck with me is we all are fulfilling three roles simultaneously throughout our lives and the relationships we have are always going to change but we're always a mentor to someone else so you might be you know starting your career in cyber security and this and that but you know you might have a nephew or a niece that looks up to you and and you're mentoring them without necessarily even knowing it and then you're also very involved in a peer group so that's a second key

relationship that you have and then the third relationship is your mentee to someone else whether there's a formality to it or not and so that's just something that's always stuck with me over the years is at all times I you know I sometimes I dwell on it and think about it and then write poetry but but for the most part to know you're you're fulfilling all three of those roles simultaneously on a regular basis every day every week every month [Music] when you are let's focus on bucket three a little more formal when you're in that relationship where you are a mentee to somebody somebody else is mentoring you what are the expectations that you have

for the mentor in terms of the relationship and who drives the discussion who drives the direction of the mentor mentee in general the way I do it with my mentor aces I Drive the discussion I'm empty as the mentee okay this is these are my concerns right now and then I try to pose the scenario or the conversation I want to have and then I throw the ball it's kinda like tennis let me let me get this all set up here's what I'm thinking here's my concerns and lob it over the fence and then I'm a very persistent you know this I'm a very persistent individual I have no problem putting an expert d-cell battery in the NAG Ematic

and pursuing my mentor to make sure I get on his calendar make sure that you know I have time with her and get the is the opportunity to discuss this

[Music] or my own metaphor it's only way in with them or lean on them verges on you problems okay whatever I'm actually talking to the live persons that I'm mentoring I try to talk about everything tiny in their lives it's a desert doesn't outlet to try to get past maybe the burnout and the constant imposter syndrome that comes with working inside so I think if you go both ways it can really be I only really lean on even get your ear for things that are giant and impactful or check in a lot and you know I don't have kids so this gets my kid now yeah well you actually ventured into the next question that I want to ask

which what would Chris Carpenter's I think Kia actually answered it inadvertently is around having differing relationships between when you're in the middle when you're both a mentor and a mentee do you have different expectations in how you deal with your mentor that you do with the people that you are the mentor for yeah so we're gonna go back to that first question where my mentors how I who drives a conversation and some of the my mentors independent what women reaching I mean especially if it's a someone I have a casual more personal relationship it may just be that back and forth quality back and forth it is someone who I've never met work normal relationships with I

generally tend to shut up which is impossible sometimes based on how much I've talked to her today but and then for that how it shapes I mean realistically I go into every mentee situation we kind of as a coach and there's a really good book called the coaching paddle I forgot the gentleman's name Michael something but that's a really good skill but you mentioned this so again I'm not there my answers I'm there itself that kind of worked through that problem and so a lot of times I left my mentees kind of run with me what do you struggle in there okay you say it's career because that's what they clean right now it's career

I'm not even I can hire them I'm getting ghosted I'm not hearing back from someone and it's like okay so what are you doing what's next whatever what have you done already and it's and it's basically at the end of it it's almost like you said comic that shrink relationship click okay and you know I'm not writing on a tablet anymore but uh but it's just one of those things where the link gonna come to this point that one should reach back out to every where I should I should maybe take a look at my resume toilet paper or maybe actually tag someone else on this will reach out some journal Jean thoughts on either question

no okay so we saw in the room 20 to 30 35 40 percent of people have some kind of a mentor relationship in case the rest are interested in starting something how do you approach somebody to say hey I'm interested in getting your opinion I'm interested in having a discussion with you how do you open the door to that as any as a potential Protege to a potential mentor

actual you should usually look for in a mentor if somebody believes where you want to be they have the lifestyle and the coping skills that you wish to cultivate in yourself and they have just a drive that you know that you could mimic if you just had a little bit of for them to take with you if you've got some of their ideas and their database driving a course to just input into your own life I would sum across the audience to so only 20% of hands went up it was like I was questioned and maybe when you talk afterwards that's like it how many people think that this is the omentum search is because I didn't see

a lot of hands go up I mean is is it because it's not interesting to you or maybe not hit a point in your life where you haven't had me to someone else's support the guidance world advice if that's the case I definitely would love to talk to you because I mean the way that I have approached every situation is just I mean we're all struggling with something I mean I mean we're all human we all have health problems family problems relationship problems and stuff like that and just being able to see how people who've gone ahead of us whether it's through blogs you know though such and that's why I kind of use a lot of

assessment of what a mentorship is it's just because there's some people that I just every single time date content I'm always on because I know that I'm gonna get some nugget something that's gonna hit and capped me and some like that so if you're not getting some sort of normal relationships like that let's talk and because I would love to hear either why what you're struggling with and maybe maybe there's a conversation that could happen how do I get started in I agree with everything that everyone has said so far me personally I choose like like as a mentee I'm choosing my next mentors constantly as I continue my own personal evolution some of them are in technology

some of them are just business people and and some of them are just casual relationships that I want to I want to know more about that person and how they're abused how they would view my circumstances at any given point in time and and what they would say about what I should be considering and taking a look at how can you give them enough insight if they don't if it's not somebody you work with directly how do you give them enough insight to be able to make those informed pieces of advice I have a biography it covers three different volumes and I ask them to read it in advance and I want a hundred bucks on

that

you know I think that's part of the dynamic of the relationship is is the the mentors going to come and say you know but hopefully they're asking really good questions so they can get that pertinent without me trying to lay the baseline of what I think they need to know that's that's part of the unique relationship is they want to ask their questions to compile their own baseline of the circumstances I'm gonna get a little squishy here and say formability is a big thing I mean those ya know but I think Walter Bell is a big thank you when you're going into that relationship you are you are coming at a vulnerable state means realistically

depending on what we're talking about I mean it may be like we talked about posture syndrome you know and that's huge like I think I mean how many people are suffering impostor syndrome in some form or fashion I think the most rooms hands are up and that's I mean it's I mean depending on where you landed is it real I mean I just feel this move so quickly everything is going on around us so quickly life is changing so much and so I think from that standpoint it's just I think it's just important for you to kind of come to that relationship you know wholeheartedly whole person as a mentor you know I can't really

necessarily assess performance but I'm not there to assess performance I'm there to address the person and in the purest case of easier to say and partner do as I say not as I do when somebody comes to me with the imposter syndrome comment even though I have yeah ongoing case of it chronic the first thing the first thing I mentioned then is the mere fact that you're asking about this means that you want to be bigger than you are you want to be you want to be even better and that means you're not an imposter so just to try and set that baseline if you were interested in asking the question you can't possibly meet the death I

think that versus whoever was there Hanna I think you're ready for a self-assessment say looking like I think you're well aware who you are what you can we are capable of and your finger gaps and limitations message especially in this field just like you know your strengths are know where you can where you you can perform and I think that's your client can be a mentor as well because you're already addressing I know I can do these things so maybe there's someone out there that needs that particular words of wisdom you know experience that you have yeah I would say it's really important in this industry to I mean obviously you guys are all up here soon you're not one

of the people sitting in like a dark room kind of flooding it getting into a vacuum of imposter

succeed in this I get I might never know what I'm talking about in a meeting I think it's really good to try to encourage everybody around you to get out of that nobody throws that way and then also I think it's really important to not only to admit what you're vulnerable with but maybe throw that away I mean maybe look at all the strengths that you have identify that drinks in another person and ask them how they cultivated them to that level it doesn't even have to be something super formal just like I notice you are awesome at being a technological evangelist like what do you do to practice this so you mentioned you mentioned that there are

we all know there's people who spend all day heads down looking at the beads trying to identify things so my question is this juxtaposed with the notion of mentorship inside formal structures to the leaders out in the room those that are running organizations or deciding growth plans is there value in having leaders try everything they can to carve time out for it especially for those people who don't spend time out or don't have the ability in their workday to give them the time to go have these kind of relationships as part of their job and not necessarily make it have to be after work I think personally yes if anybody ever gets the point of upper management

in a career it really sucks to work under somebody who doesn't have technical know-how understanding of a good work-life balance especially in the furniture invades of your younger career where maybe you are pulling 14-hour days in front of a computer and nobody is nice to you even for a minute I think it's important for upper management to understand what exactly it is like at the lower levels on going you can't just forget where you came from you can't forget what it's like to lead people I think this is a really positive thing for the mentor as well to just stay on the ground floor and remain compassionate now it adds it's a support for you to

take time during the day but also know that you require that's a leader as well may be taking time through the day because if anyone says it's a that it's it's lonely at the top you're not because at that point on you you're kind of middle management still you can't really grow until you start getting a wider perspective and that also means down low and up high I mean knowing where your strengths and weaknesses are as leader I think you're not taking time to have to figure those things out working with your your mentees working with your employer employees I think you're you're missing a huge piece of conversation I think I know everyone's going to agree

with this but there's a huge difference between managing and leading and and very few people ever apply for it I mean how many people have seen the Job Description that took meeting versus managing your you know you have X number of direct reports you have this you have that managers manage to KPIs leaders interact with people and get things done and and so all of us have the opportunity to be leaders on a daily basis on a regular basis it's its influence without authority and I think that's important and and there are some people that rise to the top a couple of things in you've mentioned a couple of books one of my favorite quotes is multipliers and it talks about

how there are people that are in management roles leadership roles that are enablers that get people to try to stretch themselves and go do things beyond their comfort zone and then there's detractors and the people that push them down and stay in your cube and this and that there's tons of analogies about that but one of my favorites is everybody here know who Phil and shoot says you know he's got a little money in the bank made it in oil and business my wife works for one of his companies and he happens to own the Broadmoor down in the Colorado Springs the story is I wasn't there because it was way too early but the story is he showed up

before five o'clock in the morning one day and parked his car all by himself walked in found the way to the kitchen brought bill notes for everybody made a fresh pot of coffee walk it out and was giving everybody in the front desk fresh coffee and donuts the Ballet's that do the parking the people that are the first impression with the customer base he was serving them coffee and donuts and asking how was their day what did they think of the late shift how do you get prepared for the day and this is that that's leadership that's someone that really wants to understand what's going on in the trenches at one of his companies I think that's I think that's

a great example of things that people do what makes a good what characteristics make a good mentor you start you started in on this in terms of leadership genes let's take a little further about characteristics that make a good mentor and then we'll come back around after all three of you and do that same about Protege what me what characteristics make a good project i I think one of the most important characteristics of mentorship is is listening I don't you know my grandpa thrown up on the partner he used to always say God gave you two ears and one mouth to be used in that proportion

I'm gonna say self-awareness I think I think that's a big thing too I mean leaders are like you sick like gene mentioned listening is huge I think it's a mentor I I do more listening which is again you know you know I talked too much already here so but it's one of those things where I think that's some awareness you know your strengths know where you can otherwise know where you can step that person through and then know your limits as well being able to know your limits and be able to connect them to someone that you really value I think being a connector is huge to patients as a mentor maybe you're missing your Protege aren't always going

to be forthcoming with telling you their issues or sharing all their successes and letting you celebrate them because so just being patient and always acting and all that one around the around the mentor site I'm actually gonna take Chris's answer from something before and turn it back around I think in order to be a good mentor you also need to be vulnerable the part of the relationship is it is given tank and you need to be human to the person you're mentoring and vice versa so I think opening up and being vulnerable with the person you're mentoring while still creating a sense that they can have confidence that you will give them the direction that's appropriate I think

Molnar ability helps a lot true owner ability not [Music]

know I laugh if each size does not come up with a book club yeah I think ego is the way guy Ryan holidays a really good book in terms of just talking about seeing examples of in the past and history so like that it talks a little bit of stoicism of your if you're interested in that as well but I think stepping outside like you mentioned like stepping outside of yourself in the way like absolutely just like an address and in criticism I mean if you're able to take it I think as a mentor you need it there's a it's a fine balancing act of being critical but at the same time being kind of direct to me like if

you're if me if you're there to address the problem that they're seeking out your advice address the problem sometimes you're just not gonna like the answer as a mentee you have to be able to take that answer in a absorb it and make it actionable I think from the mentee side is of in I agree with the hundred percent is you have to be willing to accept brutal honesty from your mentor and then you have to make people need to make the decision do I want to change or am i okay wallowing in this crap pile that I created for myself you know and that's okay you know you have to take responsibility to create your own

action to make change for yourself and go to where you want and you have to be willing to take that brutal honesty great what we're just about to finish up and then to some questions with the audience but if you each have one very quick thing you've learned in the time you've been a mentor that you want to share to those that may consider being mentors I really enjoy it honey that's a I think was the biggest thing being a heads-down engineer in the past and not wanting to talk to people I guess gaming folks got like five pairs and realizing that man like cat I just really enjoy having conversations with clubs and trying to

help them out in small small small way I really like it I get a lot out of it and I think I work a lot because it's not just me settling for an okay answer if we trying to find someone a better answer and for me I I try to come to the circumstances with lots of questions how do I ask enough questions to really understand before everybody hates going to the doctor you show up whether runny nose and they just say oh you got a cold here's your medicine you know you have an opportunity that has questions dig below the surface and then really contribute once you know what's going on another thing I've

learned most that in every interaction I can and will learn something if I listen close enough one last book for the book club but you really should get started give it an take by Adam grant it's about two types of people wait until it's three givers takers and matchers and understanding the people you're talking to the people you're dealing with you mentor and mentee relationships really helps you understand how better to speak with them and know what to expect in return so thank you very much there's questions from the audience we can take them in 45 minutes of Q&A and I won't leave here until you've all filled it yeah what's your favorite a nice

squirrel and you just been told to start to these sides yeah question please [Music]

[Music] [Applause] [Music] it's great not flashed his board it's exactly the next question that was about to come up you enter a big thing you should ever enter everything knowing how you're going to leave it I think you and I were talking about this the other night so yeah how do you how do you know it's time right now honey we'll let me pray make sure I heard it right how do you know it's time and how do you how do you gracefully exit cash

thanks a lot leave it on the nightstand walk out with grace you know I I don't know that I necessarily quote-unquote ever or really ended a relationship that where I considered someone who's a mentor I still have those relationships I just don't meet with them as frequently and and you know I I don't think I personally quote unquote close one a lot like that I think it's really fake your own death there's probably a good one no I agree I mean you mentioned my friendship and stuff like that so I think a lot of those naturally just kind of gravitate to where their closure a mentor even from a mentor that like you're not getting a lot in that

relationship there's your a sounding board for only so long and stuff like that and so I think what you do is you the wave race Liana so that is just kind of like like that space creating that space and making sure that hey I don't I don't need to be this way you know if it's pushing mentor it's like that you just need truthful I mean the whole thing's the whole relational space on truths and vulnerability is promising I really appreciate what you provide it I really appreciate your time I think I'm able to work on these things now and thank you for me it's about a nebulous this one who can know like what to stop talking

to your best friends or just on your mind like hopefully you don't but I guess when it stops II so I've taken a little more crack a little more off parochial approach over the years I've done where you walk in and say how some questions around these topics these are after some very specific answers from some very specific skill set and so I have questions to these would you mind if we take the next six months and go through this but I'd like to get through it I also wanna piece it a little bit so that it didn't linger on forever before me nor for the person who I was asking for their help and then at the end of six months

evaluate and say have we achieved all the things that we wanted to do it takes a little more ëoh already smart bold type format but in those cases where it's not a relationship I already had that was he of somebody over politics against advice this also works with people who or is a little more on a technically they feel unattainable there are people in in c-level positions in your company or in others are those that are they wouldn't normally just call up and say hey I have a question putting some structure around it big lets them let them feel comfortable about entering it and not worrying about it becoming a permanent a permanent role on their time

it could be something they can plan for alright then I think we're out of time thank you all very much really appreciate

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