BSidesNCL (Newcastle) 2022 - ShoDAN, Featuring Lisa Forte by Lisa Forte,Dan Card and Dan Conn

how do you get out it's a great question please don't leave the beginning of this we need all of you um so i'm sam you can't see my face big thing well you can in the room but on the recording and on the stream if you're watching this on youtube you'll be watching half an hour later than live reasons related to sunderland which i will keep saying but it's true it's true all right so um three amazing panelists today legends of infosec mariad and dan carl um

all right lee's support says here that's good so we'll start off with some introductions just in case you don't know our wonderful panelists so first of all dan khan i'd like you to introduce lisa forte and tell us a fun fact about her please i've been tricked into coming on this panel so this is lisa porto she climbs a lot up slate and lots of other things she hunts down smiley pirates ah what else do you do you like goats um what an intro this is lisa and she's like

sounds quite predatory when you put it like that it doesn't sound like a nice yeah i mean like like goats is not like the but thanks for that cheers ah network's going hang on we're back we're back you're back you're here you're moving it's all good all right daniel uh no lisa forte could you introduce daniel card please and tell us a fun fact about him so this is dan card he is one of my closest friends and has been for years um he actually has been linked to the fsb for years um many people actually think he is the leader of north korea and um he likes to hack my iphone on a regular basis because to show me that my

security practices are rubbish excellent thank you very much and last but not least daniel can you please introduce daniel khan hi everyone uh i'm introducing dan khan dan likes to run a dj and shitpost on twitter and i don't know if he is uh in charge of china but it's possible so we've got some world leaders in our midst and i think that's important so thank you very much everyone and welcome it's lovely to have you here um who has tin foils in hand anyone obviously you've got some on your head dan khan got any tinfoil no it's fine well dan khan wins that then by himself so well done dan come on yay we've been set up here i mean in all

fairness i wasn't sure if dan was being honest when he said we need tin foil and um yeah i mean like i kind of just saw the tip of that thing i thought so let's let's this is this entry right sam yeah absolutely and on this panel you are the winner by default for trying and i like it now we talked in the in the run-up about fully trusting the situation i feel like daniel card you don't fully trust us because yeah i mean you know like the uh trust no one right that's like that unless they like goats and then they're fine i think that was a compliment that's enough of that okay so um getting

out of foreign now ladies and gentlemen don't some him we have to write a book about how to get into it first someone's anyone done that no you should just get out i don't mean you should believe in prosec please don't um everyone who's here really for the first time it's experiencing infosec they've just show of hands in the room that you can't see on the call um whose first conference is this from close sec some noobs downstairs everyone up here is like born and bred so you've got the professionals up here god knows what's going on downstairs in track one no one knows um burnout's a real thing a real thing and i think all of us have experienced it in

one way or another probably and if you haven't yet um maybe that's something to look forward to or not but we were chatting around howdy how do you switch off and is it even possible to switch off so i think that's gonna be our first question to our panelists and i'm gonna go start with lisa um do you think it's actually possible to switch off realistically in infosec i'd like to say yes but i actually think the answer is probably no um i actually read preparing for this panel i was actually reading this study by a company called frontiers and they did a study that actually was really interesting because it linked the concept of job burnout or

work burnout with social media use and they found a significant positive correlation between the amount you use social media and the amount of stress or burnout that you experience in your day-to-day life um and i think for me that's a really big thing as well because social media is really like a highlight reel of everybody's career and life apart from dan khan who chases russians around and calls people out but uh dan card sorry apart from him he's an exception but apart from dan you know most people you kind of end up whether you like it or not comparing yourself to other people and comparing your life to other people's lives and all of that is actually as the study

found um sort of compounding that feeling that you need to work harder you need to do more you need to be happy you need to have more money you need to have more things etcetera etcetera which in which actually creates stress in your life and for me like you know i can physically stop working and go and do something but the chances are i check twitter just before i go climbing to see what's happening or or i'll message someone back about something or have an email notification so i actually don't feel like i properly ever get a proper proper proper break unless i go down or abandon mine which may be the solution for all of us

down the mines down the mines um so i i love watching your your climbing and career i'm really good at falling off stuff so the fact that you that's even better um so i think it's it's a good way of demonstrating what else you do great posts around um tenuous links between climbing and infosec which yeah sometimes i don't even go to the link i just post a photo and go now make up what you want about that i think it's good to kind of broadcast that life that outside of infosec on social media channels related to infosec so that people can see that um dan khan i'm gonna come to you next so do you do you switch off do you think

it's possible to switch off what do you what do you do to stay sane i mean in a way i'm not really actually in infosec you know i'm a dev in a cyber security company so um that that being said um i mean obviously you know all my part time is pretty much in fact um if not then it's running um and i think i think that's it i think for me it's a hobby um that being said you know i've been as a dev works on like instant responses you don't you know you just have to be there for 24 hours for example sometimes not in my current company in previous months um so i think it kind of that's the

thing it kind of hits you whether you're in infosec uh you know whether you're a security engineer or whether you're you know dealing with insider threats or intelligence or a dev you still have these um you know you still have a way into it if you're working in that realm and it is very difficult to switch off because you know if it does go wrong if you're in a breach or an incident you can't just go okay well i'm just going to wander off now but no running helps um i think for me it's like just wandering around and seeing like really nice views to be honest with you i actually can't personally can't actually stand the the

running i what i do like is the seeing beaches seeing really nice views of the downs and seeing like you know really good sound landscapes i'm with you running like running is just like the most boring thing i run if i'm being chased or if i'm chasing someone and that's like golf is worse though i think golf is worse than running i i don't know do you like girls man i like walking oh my god it's dana gopher you can see like the last time i played golf i was up north and i hit the clubhouse and i was really really impressed with my like yes i just [ __ ] hit the golf club um but

supposedly that's not the done thing to do um you know like you're not meant to just be whacking the ball and they all like to wear nice clothes and stuff and you know it's golf golf is uh is is weird right because it [ __ ] up a walk so i like golf because you get to walk around and see like outside which is like a good contrast to my normal day but i'm not a golfer i am rubbish without playing golf though that's also possible you know that right you don't need to take the golf clubs yeah yeah yeah i mean like i mean the golf course is nice though just in case someone comes knee you can

bounce him on the head what if we combined your three hobbies so you could do running climbing and golf all at the same time like extreme running golf hobby like golf is not a hobby of mine i rock climb i boulder i snowboard i like read it on twitter dan card is a yeah i like golf um the i mean i've done conference calls while rock climbing um i've done i think i've done instant response while on the snowboard like i have definitely worked at work um but i did a great job telling people how to switch off here when you're going yeah i mean down the alps on the sun snowboard so like but

i think there's like i think there's a real a real point here and lisa raised this as well like my social media experience is a bit different to other people's because i'm very much me generally on it and i i don't really like i don't compare myself to other people if there's selfies with like like that's fine i don't really watch any social media i'm just like looking at threat intelligence and making like jokes with my friends but like the it must be really difficult for people right because all you see is the curated view and a bit like an infosec right everyone talks about that time that i like got them on admin in 10 seconds or

i've owned a million servers and everyone talks about how amazing they are i mean i i don't like linkedin uh because of the level of [ __ ] on it and because everyone there is constantly just like i'm amazing whereas like that isn't life like i have days like today for example like i am really tired i was up late i was like sitting at a computer for 14 hours yesterday i'm sitting there looking at some cool threat intel and reverse engineering some uh some malware and [ __ ] like that and i'm like i'm tired i'm not having a great day uh and and people don't talk about on social media a lot like everything's

amazing and it's all marketing and it's all about brand promotion and it's all about me and i'm like [ __ ] that it's that isn't life right um [Music] and i think it's really important to i understand that and be also like you know not just be a computer all the time and i am terrible for this right like i literally am um cybering a lot like [ __ ] loads and like lisa says like we i go if i go away a family or i do something i i'm on my twitter i've got like work calls coming in i did instant response on christmas day uh my missus was super not happy with me

like you can't not right like that's like oh hi uh i'm being pwned uh can you help no mate i'm eating turkey um so i think it's really difficult you've got this expectation point like i see lots of i guess some of the stuff i've seen i see lots of people coming into industry and being like oh i'm a cyber and i need to be a senior super chief ex within half a year and i'm like what [ __ ] planet you want it that doesn't work that way and i think i'm see like i see companies to hire people who are quite like uh and new in their careers and sometimes they give them these jobs with like grandiose

titles to sort of leverage that oh i can get a security person because i don't care about security but i need someone and then you've got like you've got this weird scenario like uh in that front you've got like unrealistic expectations you've got everyone telling everyone how amazing and how like brilliant everything is when it isn't but everyone has problems um and then you've got this 24 7 365 internet connected world and in the cyber part of it you know we we we see bad stuff right so like combine all of that that you need to be amazing and you need to be able to do like never get pwned and then if you do get

pwned you need to be awake for seven days on with no sleep and destroy every cybers just with your lasers coming at your eyeballs and you know i'm making jokes about this stuff but i i think it's a problem i think burnout is real i think the emotional stress the stress and relationships um stress on family life and stuff i think it's really bad and i think because our if you think about the world i'm like okay how much of the world does it maybe one percent and like one percent of the one percent is the security people right that's like it is a bit like the the spartans against the 300 the 300 against the

the persian army right like it's an onslaught constantly it's 24 7 and we have weird stuff like at nine o'clock on a friday morning everything's fine and then five minutes past nine someone drops a poc which is a remote code execution and it affects exchange servers globally and so i i think it's a i think these things are important issues i think they are real um and i think there is also rejection is really key as well because one thing for me is that and i'm probably guilty of this as actually probably most people are but i don't post like oh well i got rejected from this conference or i didn't get my paper accepted from this conference or i

pitched for this client and we lost the we didn't win the pitch or whatever and i think rejection is just part rejection failure a part of life and you experience it all the time and in the climbing community they have quite a healthy relationship with it because you kind of make a joke about it and you're like yeah i still can't climb this or like i thought i could climb this grade and i failed on this grade and it's kind of accepted that every it happens to them but i think because we only talk about the things we have successfully done it makes me feel like well i'm failing at everything and i often feel that

because i look at people and i'm thinking well i'm getting rejected from these things and these people aren't but they probably are we're just not posting about it it kind of creates this really distorted reality i guess i think that's a really good point um hands up in this room if you put a talk to a conference and it's been um it's been declined yeah i don't i've ever asked anyone to talk at a conference you've never been a circuit conference i get asked to talk and stuff i don't i've ever asked anyone to talk at one i'm rubbish on cameras and stuff right like i totally uh i'm not like a complete introvert but

like i am totally not like i don't run around trying to be on cameras and stuff like i struggle like i can i can present and i do presentations for work and uh and stuff but like i find i find like with my workload and everything i'm definitely not i don't run around trying to give talks and stuff like i put loads of content out on twitter and sometimes linkedin yeah um but i like struggle with putting stuff out for for that like that makes sense yeah yeah at least for the yeah folks in the room it's tough right it is tough i mean i i've got my first rejection from besides melbourne i'm just going to call

them out um yeah fight me i've got plenty of watch list by rsa um also true and it's i think that that piece around social media is so important is we all put our best lives out there and and all of us you know also struggling at the same time and it's yeah it's sometimes i i've got i've got a friend i know people got this friend on facebook five-year-old like me or on the new you know the tick tocks or whatever you young people use um a friend who literally throws out everything that's wrong in her life all the time she decides to [ __ ] for it someone why he was puking up all over

social media and so if that's her therapy she feels really good when she's blurted out over facebook but she's not she again she's definitely accepting to the role um i think the issue is fairly well framed around um the fact we work too many hours i've also done christmas day down i'm with you i've nearly dropped a phone in the carrots um that would create a second incident right you have to call someone else up like help my phone's just dropped and sometimes always some company in the middle east always that's having a some sort of breakdown on christmas day on purpose and you're like oh my but we did it it was lisa in the library

with the uh the floppy drive right like here's the form virus from the 90s [ __ ] you i can guarantee you between three of you plus me and i know damn com you do impersonate for fun it's our tenure's pretty long and i don't know people in this room right so we're all still here we're doing that so there's got to be a reason for that not that we're all just complete perverts basically be like having a terrible life but it's something regularly wrong with us so there's got to be stuff that we love about it um dan khan giving you dudes infosec from fun in your spare time like what do you love about it what's what does it

make what makes you tick oh wow i mean there's loads of different areas that i just find absolutely fascinating i mean i think i think the first thing was like quite early on in kind of my death career i was i basically was in middle of the breach she got hacked and kind of we didn't have a subsecurity team there was literally five people in this office and you can imagine like exactly how well planned and orchestrated that was at all you know it really was wasn't it was you know days of being like completely a mess and it was mainly what started it was the senior devs that i worked with didn't really know what skew coding was we're

talking like 10 years ago and i didn't i i definitely didn't you know slightly secure what and so i think from that it you know learning about you know how you know i think we use php at the time so like how even you know if you create an authentication system in php just because you say you're waiting for true but could be one could be anything that could mean true right you know because it's not a strongly typed language so things like that got me i guess into it and just the more i find out the more i find it absolutely fascinating so i think like i think watching i think nicole beckwith do her uh ocean talk a couple of years

ago for conan that made me want to go more into looking about that and researching that cryptography i find absolutely fascinating you know the mass behind there and you know how tricks can be played with mass you know really you know on a high level it's not really a trick i'm sorry i'm sitting there shaking yeah is but i think that's the thing with security there's a lot of the time it's true dealt with as if it's like this magic thing and i know dan carl's got probably opinions on i'm calling it magic too you know it's it's it's not but it it it has that kind of a little to it i think and that's what i

really you know it's just you know i mean by having the flipper zero in front of me and like oh my god what can i do with it you know and it's that kind of energy that i don't i mean i like coding but it's it's a yeah there you go it's a different um thing sorry anything awesome sorry come on so the people involved are very welcoming i think i just like saying as well like on the back of what dan said there is this weird perception in the world that you have infosec teams everywhere you don't uh like it's it's the not the normal thing to go into an org and have a like

an i.t or an information security team and if you're in a regulated industry it's a bit different but there's definitely most companies don't have dedicated cyber security teams or infosec teams and and when we look at like how the well the world really works not how it works in a book right or in someone's mind is like if you're developing something or if you're operating you know a system generally if you look at people's their requirements the requirements are they are responsible for the security of that system um and when you look at governance structures and stuff everything rolls up into a a ceo or an md and you know this stuff gets divested around in across an organization so i

think it's important for people to realize that you can be called a developer in your job title and your job is in the cyber security industry as well right like i think people think that like unless you're like oh i'm a cyber and i've got my cyber gun and it's weird because you know there are specialisms in everything and security as a management function is a specialist capability um security from a like pen testing from an architecture they're all specialisms but when you think about what the role of cyber security and what we're trying to do we're trying to defend our devices and systems against attack and you don't need to be called cyber ninja warrior 137 whatever

the [ __ ] to be doing infosec um you know and like people talk about like risk and and and all these like like models and stuff like that and don't get me wrong like they're great like i'm not saying not to use them and i use them myself and but i i go in sometimes and i start doing like complex theoretical like modeling and people are like we just want the simple version mate what the [ __ ] we can't understand that so i think there's this real like juxtaposition in the world of thinking there's like cyber warriors versus there's a developer who's got a web server and it's under attack and they've you know implemented an iptables rule to

to block loads of stuff or they've put a wef in front of it or cdn or it's like it's all technology management and technology integration and i'm really boiling it like simplifying it because when you look at it you know there's the academic side there's the education side there's the marketing the facilities the physical sect the uh you know the research part there's all this stuff but fundamentally it's defending computer systems right and defending information so it's important that people should realize that you don't need to have a specific job title to be in cyber security i think it's true and there's a lot of made up ones i've got a made-up job title i

completely hear you i mean all of mine are made up right i think i'm in a uh some form maybe some formal minutes somewhere as uh cyber jedi knight um you know that kind of stuff with nice little like logos in the top right and you know uh coats of arms and all that crap this is true the but you know something like i think it's important that people like don't worry so much about stuff right you don't need to be you shouldn't be knowing everything in the in the first six months of your career your job title actually generally doesn't mean so much in the real world it might mean a lot on linkedin but it

doesn't actually matter um nothing actually needs anything right that's my take anyway like yeah it's easy for me to say i've been doing this stuff like i think i've been in tech than that for 20 something years um but i've had that approach generally like hopefully throughout my career and it's more what you do and how you do it and how you approach it and how you are than it is what title you've got right i think so i think so on that note i mean we talked about kind of like what you know how you look yourselves lisa i think it'd be good to get your take on from a leadership perspective like sure

this is a loaded question and the answer is 100 yes but i'd love more on it it's like how the cyber security leaders they've got to be taking more responsibility for the mental health um and the switch-off time of their employees right what tips do you think we can give to leadership folks around that what should we be asking our managers for i think you need so so there was this program that i watched and i can't really remember who the presenter was but they were talking about how different countries around the world handle workplace stress amongst their employees and this wasn't obviously related to tech it was related more generally to the work uh environment

and they were talking about how in germany um if you're off work for whatever reason on holiday or on your weekend you're not allowed to be contacted by work by work that is actually not allowed under their employment laws or something and i think certain things like that are actually really healthy because for me i've had a couple of situations where i've had complete breaks off social media i've just deleted the apps off my phone and just not logged in for a period of time and i think you get that initial anxiety where you're like oh i've got to check my emails or i've got to check my social media um but after a couple of days you

realize that actually you really don't like nothing is there are other assists if your organization literally cannot survive because you're off on holiday then there's a real problem there with a single point of failure because you god forbid but you could get hit by a bus and then what does your organization do right so i sort of feel like we've got to stop feeling like you have to be connected all the time and perhaps we need proper breaks i think we need proper time where we can go and do something that doesn't involve cyber or networking or social media or reading white papers or writing white papers or all the other stuff that we end up doing

thinking that it's not work but it basically is work right um because i think those breaks are really important for human beings and we're unfortunate in cyber as well in some respects because um a lot of our interaction is online with each other and a lot of our stuff is in front of screens right um and i spoke to a friend of mine who's also an intersex and she's like oh no i have good breaks and i'm like but you wake up and you look at your phone and then you're on your computer all day and then you switch onto your ipad or then you go and sit in front of the tv your entire day from waking up to

going to bed is in front of a screen and that's just not healthy long term i don't think but i'm not very good at doing that myself as you'll tell from my social media feed so i'm kind of preaching at you but also not following my own advice so you do go rock climbing quite a lot though right so like you do manage to get out i know but i usually text you a photo of it yeah that's true i'm sitting there going like i really wish i wasn't a computer and i was like yeah i don't because i'm sitting there going like my hands are now like super hand modeled level off my hands

and i'm actually like worried now if i try and go climbing that basically i'll cry because it will hurt too much um which it will like to golf down stick to golf the static but it is really difficult to like i'm terrible with the balancing part of it and like like everything we do is connected right and it gets even worse inside because like some of the stuff it's like where does my packet go right like i like obviously not everyone cares about this stuff but i'm like you know you go online i'm i tweet a lot i i have tweeted over two hundred thousand times i'm not even looking at what the campus now it's so stupid um

to the point where it's it's weird right and it's affected my life and my interactions with people and i don't say effect in a negative way or a positive way but it definitely does like i go on twitter all the time um but also i'm really happy when i'm not on it i go out with my family i like going for drives i like going for walks and visiting places and seeing my friends and stuff like so but i mean what i do is really weird obviously i've got a really small boutique with consultancy business so uh i i i have this weird like anchor to me essentially of cyber security stuff i get phone

calls from uh from a work point of view or i get like um threat intelligence stuff or people asking for help yesterday i had three different people ask me independently for help from cyprus right just as a can you help me out dan i'm being attacked by someone or i've got a problem with someone attacking my website or you know nation state russian baddies and that kind of stuff um the so it is difficult you have to i think people have to work out like their own sort of balance i i do like okay i know that it's like a massive part of what i do but then i sit there and say okay cool i go on holiday uh and i do

stuff intentionally to have my breaks but i do like full on and then full off rather than doing like uh what most people should probably do which is do a normal normal length of working day and then go and do something fun in the evening but i think people need to find what works for them i i take it like um if i'm happy then that's cool right that's why i'm trying to be happy i'm not generally a miserable person um see i think people need to work out what works for them i think like when you look at workplaces and like the way people work and this totally depends on the job there are jobs that you have to

be in an office and it's you know what i'd say very traditional in terms of how it works and that's because like you might be manufacturing something or the industry you're working and just it isn't like our industry i've been working remotely forever pretty much um doing really cool things of rdp when i was much younger that was totally insecure well fun um so i think it's important sort of like find what works for you find what works for your life and you know be okay with saying this isn't okay and doing things differently right like don't i wouldn't like don't get me wrong role models and uh like people of influence and that's all good and stuff with

respect and helping and learning and sharing and it's great but like people shouldn't probably try and compare themselves to everyone and everything and i can see how like it must be really difficult for some people right especially if you think about like the the cone of people in the world there's like the cybers at the very bottom right there and the people that either do it as a hobby or as a job or have a real like really light pattern for this stuff and then you've got like the rest of the world so it's like it's it's i think it's a really competitive space even though in reality i don't think it's quite as competitive i think it's

more mentally competitive if that makes sense yeah i know you mean i don't mean i think it's entirely i watch lisa's supposed to grow up climbing and i'm like probably go rock climbing right it's like when you're not playing golf i don't want to play love yeah thank god i'm going to come to you um one of the things i found really helped me was turn off a lot of the notifications on my phone and given that dan card hacks lisa's phone returns the notifications back on um have you what do you do to try and reduce the noise um i actually use quite a few apps to just like shut out all new notifications everything i mean

i take social media notifications just not at all so there's been a few times that people go oh yeah i don't reply and i was like well because like i'd like to be kind of in control of what i when i want to dip into it great and when i don't then i don't and i think that's helped especially as you know there's just a lot more noise as you kind of chat to more people in the world it just happens and you know i think like for you know i think it's important to kind of have your own boundaries and also one thing like when i worked uh you know an older company the one i'm

in it but you know i kind of went for some kind of management training and what i found was that people that i managed they would wait until i finished work and or they would wait you know they'd be looking you know i'd be like oh yeah you can go now you know go have a beer or you know have fun you know and you'd find that they would look at what the people above them are you know i hate the word above but you know what i mean it's having that kind of hierarchical thing of seeing what that person is doing and what are they doing well if they're staying late then i should stay late and if i

and i think that's quite unhealthy i think it's actually quite good if you're in that position to actually go i'm finishing or you know make it kind of if you can i'm not saying but you know have that kind of camaraderie of okay well you're telling everybody else to go and have fun have fun with them because it adds a culture thing it adds that that's important i don't know when you say let's go and have fun that sounds a lot better than sitting at a computer right as well but also this is another thing that i find odd like and my missus uh says this to me she's like dan she's like are you working or

are you like i'm like well i'm having fun so it's like both because what do you do when like and i think this is quite a common thing there are quite a few people who work in tech and sec that it's their hobby right and it's like it sounds stupid you could be playing a computer game and then you might decide oh i fancy cheating on that so i'm gonna like hack the memory um or i'm going to design levels or create content you know there's there's a million ways that you can end up doing the same sort of stuff i learned to script by writing jedi knight scripting language i've learned some programming for quake c like

now that's work but it's still fun like it's difficult i think i think because of these i think a because of the way life has changed i think the way we integrate in the symbiosis between humans and technology is is i say the word weird it isn't weird is it like we've extended our abilities through technology to the point we are almost symbiote symbiotically attached to our phones or to a computer to the internet and and i don't think that's necessarily a bad thing i think it depends on is it good for you does it help you does it you know and there is more to life than just sitting on the internet but i've got

friends all over the world and i love speaking to everyone right that's like i think it's also like not so much that you are joined at the hip with your phone i think the key issue is are you controlled by your phone or are you controlling that relationship because like dan said like if you feel like you're compulsively checking social media and your every notification you're checking or you're always kind of in that situation then you're not actually in control of the situation at all the phone and the notifications is kind of controlling your i guess your bandwidth in your brain as well to some degree right um whereas if you're sort of like well

i'm gonna do this and then i'm gonna check in the morning and check in the afternoon and that's it and you are actually able to do that then it's probably fine and probably healthy but i think certainly for me it very quickly encroaches into not healthy addiction level kind of behavior to be honest and then i have to really reign it back in before i'm like well i'm just going to lose my mind we have this as well though with group chats and stuff like i think lisa and i are really similar of this but i cannot do we leave them like we're like instantly if people like to add you to a group and i'm like mute and then i'm

like i'm like yeah do i need to be in here do i actually need to be like like don't get me wrong outside intel collecting stuff but like sometimes i'm like i don't need to be in this group i mean loads of discord channels that i don't i can't cope i have to put everything on mute um and i think that's okay as well right like uh like i don't like emails and people email me stuff and i find it really awkward because they i don't understand what they mean or they they tell me to do something for email they don't ask me they just like i find some forms of commentary different if you find my emails back might be

long-winded or say you know like telling you exactly why i'm not going to do anything that you've just demanded of me whereas if you phone me and speak to me i'm like oh yeah wicked i can help like i've responded yeah i can help i'm just uh i'm just playing around with golf but [Laughter] it's on the fairway

yeah right we're nearly at time really time i was gonna get you to do a scavenger hunt but um we haven't got time for that now but the first person to reach one of these three things from where they are right now um is also gonna be a winner in my eyes um so one of these three things you need to get one right either a frog a vinyl record or a carabiner i'm in an attic i'm completely i'm gonna hurt myself yeah oh [ __ ] it's like invisible i gave you money that was yeah right and last thing quick fire round we're gonna go around and i just shout all over each other

it'll be brilliant on the recording um so it's a disorder all right we'll start with an easy one fire or ice oh nice okay um is john mcafee dead or alive alive uh daddy or chips chips yes lisa you've lost your sound with this sort of thing lisa's like this is this isn't me lately i'm just about to hang off this clip it's like totally mission impossible i bet behind that brick wall is actually a mountain right it'll be like tom cruise [Laughter]

[Laughter] newcastle or sunderland oh newcastle newcastle newcastle right good you can say um what we're not done yet hang on i've done this completely out of order oh running on golf golf [Laughter] brilliant right that brings us time and um you don't even have to run in your house it's lovely um this has been this has been awesome these are important topics and it's good to hear from folks who um either choose to do cyber security fun don't know where the edges are because that's most of us to be honest um but we're still here and we still love it right so um how can folks get hold of you not email seemingly uk final card

on the twitters we'll put your twitters your twitters might be on the agenda i can't remember now whoever wrote that name um linked linkedin just send me dms i really love it especially if you want to say have i got 10 minutes to review your product for free i love that [ __ ] yeah totally do that right everyone that's your assignment this afternoon um folks in the room just a bit of housekeeping please go and see the sponsors they're next door we love them um big big big b-size newcastle round of applause please for our three amazing panelists thanks everyone thanks for having us you you're amazing and um you're gonna have your lunch now i'll go and play golf

whatever it is you do this afternoon all right thanks very much