Digital Possibilities for Research and Communication in the Humanities

so good morning everyone um I I will answer the question that someone asked me during the the opening out there what is the religion Professor doing at a um cyber security conference and to be honest I'm not entirely sure but um I I liked the way that our the previous presenter put it um taking software and what it was meant to do and thinking about what it can do and that's sort of what I've been doing for many years I'm a religious studies Professor I've been here at Canisius for 18 years and have often been pushing the edges of what some of the software can do for a long time I was the one that would break our course

management system and still do that sometimes and Tyler and Mark get the benefit of that but um I wanted to talk today and hopefully this can also be a conversation just as we had with the previous session of some people realizing oh these things that can be used in different ways thinking about how this can change or maybe some of the questions and concerns that it raises in terms of what those of us in the humanities are doing um and so as I say part of it is the question of what do these tools and these changes offer us as an alternative way to do some of what we've always been doing and so I'm going to spend a few minutes

talking about my own experiences with some of these kinds of Technology uh the LA I I will admit this again is where I I wonder what I'm doing here because the last time I took a computer science course was the AP Computer Science exam in 1989. I did have a college level course in Fortran prior to that but um those skills obviously uh would need to be updated if I tried to do anything computer science issue so um first question just in case you've never heard the term digital humanities there it's a term that gets used a lot although it doesn't necessarily have a agreed on definition I will show some examples or talk about some different

ways people think of that but for me it's really the question of how can the technology and software and just connectivity help us do things that we've always been doing to pursue traditional kinds of humanities activities research publication and looking at as I say how sometimes the tools can offer New Paths and new results um if we think of the ways that knowledge and writing has been and technology has progressed I did actually in my graduate work study cuneiform writing ugaritic not necessarily a hugely marketable skill um think of the transformation that something like movable print and mobile text created in the transmission and copying of information compared to when it had to be copied by

hand down here at the bottom left is my dissertation director he is a scholar in the Dead Sea Scrolls and even that field has had some interesting interplay in the way that technology can help in reconstructing and trying to piece together from little pieces of of ancient Scrolls partly on the assumption that if you have multiple copies of things and you can sort of estimate okay how many letters would it fit into this spot and we get a few letters here can we recreate it now obviously some words are more useful than others in trying to put those together so if it was the word the that's not as useful if it was the word

Canisius or Buffalo or other kinds of things it becomes more useful innovation and sometimes events Force us to innovate of course there's often going to be resistance to it I I know that some of my colleagues at the college sometimes felt like The Barbarians were at the gate when we start using new things um certainly into 2020 there was concern about trying to move everything online you just can't do things online well Mark and I and Tyler and I have had conversations about how to to tackle that um but in some cases it means that we use new technology for old purposes or that we're finding New Uses and then some things we use for a little while

and then we leave them behind this room is a perfect example of it I was one of the early users of this room and you notice that these desks are tables are on Wheels and they're oddly shaped the intent was to be able to make small working groups and we even had um TV screens that could be connected and had six cables coming out so that each student could hook their laptop and share and we discovered that all those cables were more complicated than it needed to be as things like go to meeting which of course did not you know get capture the market share and other web conferencing tools became available it became less necessary to have the

cables and you could just sort of switch through the screens in grad school we I was in a committee meeting where we actually had an hour-long debate about whether chalk was technology and the final conclusion was that it was technology but it really was irrelevant to the conversations for the computer technology committee that we were in uh how how many people may have had um or their grandparents and parents may have had the Encyclopedia Britannica in their house and at one point that was huge advancement and availability of information um now of course we're good reasons some of the material in the Encyclopedia Britannica is um treated skeptically I also remember using these these little

calculators in in um and it offered other kinds of information as well um and I I remember the debates about well you can't make them rely on calculators because they're not going to have be carrying a calculator around with them all the time well I I beg to differ but um that's a whole other story um and this is of course showing my age because I remember when um Merlin was a big big hit in in my school as well as pong and some of the early games I also remember being fascinated by watching about the old Battlestar Galactica where Commander Adama could dictate in the words would appear on the screen and that appeared

that that seemed so futuristic well it is there now even though even if the computer can't always recognize our our words Oregon the idea of having a communicator that could carry with you that can reach all kinds of places um my father's Texas Instruments 99 4A that I used to write my college applications and all of my high school essays is actually in the basement here we donated it as part of the updated technology um and and I still laugh at the fact that the three and a half inch floppy disks that I used through a college um I could fit all my college papers for a semester on one disk um because they were mostly Text data

and not anything else um talking now about some of the changes I've seen in when I was in college I went to school in Philadelphia and our College was one of the first to start with um computer hard catalog and because we had three schools in Consortium they put all three taired catalogs together on one system and so you could sit at one college and have sort of a virtual shelf and see what books were you know because if you've ever gone to the library and you find one book and then you see other quotes nearby that may be useful you could see if it is as if it was a virtual Shelf with all three libraries combined

um now of course doing a computer search compared to the old card catalog meant that sometimes I would end up with a long list of possibilities but it was still so wonderful to be able to go through that quickly instead of having to walk back and forth between the ketones I also remember trying to help my advisor create a web page for our class and many of the professors at my school were basically taking a document saving it is HTML and putting it online and I kept trying to say well you know so much more with that um it was at least a start but there were so many more things to do so as I

say this is also part of where sometimes as we start using the technology we're just doing the same thing and not realizing what else can be done um of course one of the challenges we find along the way if we're not careful and this is where it takes careful planning is that something that we made a few years ago is no longer compatible um and and trying to make sure that we back things up in a way that they can be recovered is very important um I also remember uh we have had some discussion of mapping earlier as part of a project that did for a I did some archaeological studies during during my doctorate I had

to make a map and so I did not have access to GIS and other things so I basically had to sort of drag the dot and put it on the spot accordingly um and so it wasn't terribly accurate and had to be redone each time I'll show in a few minutes how GIS has made that task much easier um same thing for my dissertation I had to create this map sort of by hand in approximate where where these dots went um not not my proudest accomplishment but it got the job done um while I was on an excavation they started bringing in and showing how you could use GIS and surveying tools where you could basically hold the marker and

the surveying machine would capture it and the surveyor had already been tagged to make sure it knew the precise Global location and so you could then at the end of the day download it and create a digital picture of what we found so much better than the hand drawn and hand copied ones that we were otherwise doing this is where it gets fun for me though because in biblical studies one of the important things we do is compare manuscripts and so there are people who have spent their whole careers comparing multiple manuscripts of the Bible and they've created these very carefully categorized books and you know all different kinds of symbols showing which manuscript is which

and it's useful but it goes immediately out of date as soon as new manuscripts are found and I had a professor who was editing a English translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls in particular biblical texts of the Dead Sea Scrolls based on all these Scrolls and I was in class with him and shortly after this was published I said to him well wouldn't it be great to digitize this and so that as new things are available you could add them immediately or you could click on something and it could be hyperlinked and show the full text and he just sort of glared at me because years I was implying with years worth of work and effort were wasted that really

wasn't my intent I do want to mention briefly that some people have compared the Jewish text the talmud as hypertext because on a single page it takes the um the mishna a text from the second century and then adds around it the rabbinic commentaries from various places and so in a printed version the same kind of thing as we get when you can click on a link and go and look at other things so now this is getting into my own project uh for the last 12 years or so I've been working on a project looking at religious diversity in Buffalo as I said my degree and my dissertation had archaeological components I was looking

at religious practices 2000 years ago now I'm just looking at religious practices now and interaction between communities so it's not as far off from where it might seem and my idea was to start using digital resources to make these available I had my students recording interviews I had data on different churches I had material or you know artifacts and textual materials and wanted to make this available and so this again is also where I have limited technical skills and so sometimes relied on my students and my colleagues but this the tools are becoming easier and easier to do this in the same way that even 15 years ago trying to send students out to do oral histories would

have required providing them with uh significant and costly equipment um and lots of editing challenges when everything used to be recorded on film or physical tape and then had to be transferred whereas now literally you can send them out with phones my previous presenter was talking about take using an Android phone to capture many of those images uh this makes it more accessible in easier so I started started making a map and at the time I was thinking okay I'll just Point by Point add them into Google Maps um we'll show where that led in a minute um I'm not going to play this interview but as I said I had students recording interviews and this was a really fun one

this was a Sikh gentleman who he says in the interview that when he was a young man he became a hippie but our hippies are not like your hippies because our hippies cut our hair where your hippies grow their hair alone and it was just a sort of fun fun way of expressing all of it he was also a professor at off stage for many years and um in in chemistry Department uh we now have started to take uh some of those interviews and the TV show that was produced at the college and put them into a exhibit on on online as I say initially I was going to put them on my own website but

putting them as part of the New York Heritage digital collections makes it much more accessible um and oh I wasn't intending the fact that you would even see me on this page that was not potential but um we and we have the the some of these videos categorized by different different topics and um these videos at one point were all on Vimeo but with no cataloging without with file names that had no indication of what the content was and it made it kind of difficult to find having it now in a searchable spot so that even theoretically if someone just searched um Interfaith marriage Buffalo um in a Google search then it would even um pop up for him

um we also through New York Heritage have have a larger collection of various documents and things that have been digitized um so going back to the log books uh the network of religious communities is our integrated group here in Buffalo and the Erie County Sabbath School Association was the original group that that ultimately led to What's called the network of religious communities and I don't know here excuse me uh and and we have so we have various things digitized including some really fun books uh Church directories of from 1927 to 1931 with pictures and information about my Mila congregations um in this process we've come across a lot of amazing pictures at different churches this is from a church in black the black

rock neighborhood of Buffalo West Buffalo um great political imagery here American flag a map of the continent and um I don't know how well you can see I I can show you a picture later but it's got three Native Americans pointing in a map of the United of North America basically Mary the country is yours now uh all kinds of fun imagery there uh at the network of religious communities we've been going through the archives and found all fun kinds of things um this was supposed to say Church women United but um I I kind of like the spelling here better uh one of the other fun things we found was a set of posters that

um shopkeepers could put in their Windows indicating that they were not selling inappropriate materials so fight the build column um and then in that same box we found several I'm sure just for purposes of illustration some of the inappropriate materials that they might have been um selling in their stores so detective no detective magazines um sort of early Esquire kind of thing and a men's bodybuilding magazine now um various other kinds of things and part of the question is how do we get a local organization to make these materials available but they can't necessarily make the archives physically available for people to come into so trying to um create plans for digitizing and and cataloging these pictures and other

materials and making making them more available one of the interesting things we found was a pamphlet on the foreign speaking and negro sections of Buffalo um not the not not a very modern great way of referring to it and one of the statements in there was about how native born Americans were being pushed out by their arrival of foreigners kind of forgetting the fact that most Caucasian Americans were of course none not um of native descent anyways but this little document um as I say you know was published locally and there are probably copies in other places but to digitize this and make it available becomes very important and also in interesting information to show that this was about 1926 the

average salary for ministers was about fifteen hundred dollars um average pay has gone up but still not not that great um this gets into the next issue though that one of the things I would like to do in working on this project is eventually tied into something like citizen yeah we we have citizen science where people will do participating bird counts and other things and submit their their bindings to a a website and group that is tracking it all there are examples of the citizen history option so where we have story core for instance on the radio and where there are other kinds of projects where people will contribute and so I would love eventually

for people to be able to view my project and be able to say oh you know you're you mentioned Westminster Presbyterian Church here I have pictures of my grandparents wedding from the 1920s here here are here are pictures and to be able to add those um now I mentioned a moment ago mapping so this again is where you can sometimes have the fun overlap where people who have the technical skills can help those of us who don't and so I started at one point as I said trying thinking I was just going to add the locations Point by point I told my student that was working for me okay I want you to start from the Yellow Pages

and go through and start adding these sites and he says well I'll give that a try but he says you know um he was a computer science major he says I can write python code to capture that from the um from the online Yellow Pages now the data was messy because it included things like healing water spiritual Spa which isn't exactly a religious site but it gave me 900 data points to enter into the map and then it needed some cleaning up because in some cases there were three entries for the same congregation so Saint Paul's Catholic Church Saint Paul's Catholic school and Saint Paul's Catholic rectory where three different items for the same for the same

congregation um but it allowed me to work through and identify and and say okay is this Christian is this Jewish is this Muslim and um to to create all this now let me see this is alive should be a live version of it um this was the one that I was able to to code um um and then I shared shared the files with one of my students who was in data science and he he made a better version but as they say you can um

well this one is not allowing me to search but one of one of the things that I want to be able to do with this eventually is to also do it chronological um setting so that you can say okay show me what where the congregations were in 1900 show me where they were in 2000 because for instance the Jewish congregations were largely on those of you that know buffalo in the Broadway Market area East Buffalo where many Eastern European immigrants settled in the early 1900s that's where the synagogues were now in the 2000s they're out in the suburbs now this map is currently available through some links online although after last year I was having some conversations

with some people about the question of do we even though this is all based on publicly available data do we really want to draw a map for people who might have nefarious purposes to say you want to find where all the mosques are in Buffalo here I'll show you all the locations um and so I'm still trying to think through how to do that uh speaking of things not always maintaining technological capability um my website is actually broken right now because the embed code from arcgis does not quite work so I just have conveniently not fixed that but one of the great things with arcgis is that once you have one data set you can

connect it to other data sets so for instance we could look to see how the distribution of different kinds of religious groups overlaps with the racial and ethnic distribution and you could start to see that certain certain Protestant denominations are more likely to be in the neighborhoods with high African-American population Or Hispanic population or or something else and there are also ways to change the display so that it's sort of the kind of heat map and so you could just show you know there are X number of Muslim congregations in this neighborhood versus that neighborhood but it's not specifically targeted in showing the viewer yes there is one at the corner of Jefferson and Main Street

or something like that um going back to this uh oh well I'm gonna have to escape to get that to show this was the other version that one of my students made that is more Interactive

oh and I just have to show up so my home page when I open a new tab in Google is to a digitized Jewish text archive with both Hebrew and English and so of course in one website you now have an entire Library it's you know walls and bookshelves worth of data available um that obviously Scholars would probably still want to purchase themselves and have available in print but to be able to access it anywhere even by cell phone is amazing but this is this is the this is the version that my student no let's try that again

this is the version that my student created and so um for instance if you want to see where the synagogues are um if you wanted to see the red are all the counts of congregation or blue in the Catholic congregations were at our Protestant um and you can zoom in and of course this again is where you can click on an individual one and it gives you the address I I could of course hide the address and that's that's a great thing because all of this is tied to an Excel file and all I would have to do is update and change the Excel file and um and update what what arcgis is drawing from to to do

that so that that's that's the map here are a couple other projects I'm working with um technology can also of course help us in pedagogy um I've used an online blog for some of my classes Mark helped me with the early versions of that I've created a couple games that's a conversation for another day maybe next year's presentation um but designing and Printing and Publishing things has become so much easier with technology than when it used to be that this is a card game about creation stories um it took me about six weeks to deal with all the editing and everything like that but to actually print a deck of cards prior to all of

this would have taken an extensive amount of type setting and and everything like that and this allows you to just sort of make the changes and print a new copy and run with it um speaking which I also had to format the published version of my dissertation which was not exactly fun especially since this was also happening in the time of the October storm in 2006 when my power went out as I was trying to finish the final manuscript to send to the publisher that was traumatic in so many levels um this is a fun project that I had apart in during graduate school some Civil War letters uh manuscripts and this is a good model and again this is

early on they may have changed the way of doing it somewhat but they had the manuscripts they have the pictures of them in some cases they also have different UV liked pictures to try to capture the um the writing that was less visible and my job for the one summer was to read and try to transcribe those letters and um and they put the English transcription there but then we would have comments and things like that just a side note one of the letters was from a young man who had gotten married right before his regiment marched off to the Civil War and so he was writing home to his bride and the one letter he says my darling

Julia I do not know why Robert told you that I got married against my will but that is not the case I so wish I knew the rest of that story and of course we only have his letter we don't have her letter back um and we're missing some of the other you know intervening letters but just those snapshots and as I say to be able to take manuscripts that otherwise would sit on a shelf somewhere or it literally had sat in someone's attic and now make them available and publicly available is really an amazing development um also to make them available without having to deal with print publishing which again would limit the the

um the accessibility um I have a colleague that's working on a um similar project for Coptic manuscripts early church manuscripts from Egypt have colleagues that are and we're hope I'm hoping to bring an exhibit of their work here to campus this year the religious sounds project where they've taken audio clips of many different religious communities and congregations and made them available um this was a project I found out about a few years ago where they have it's both the digital and a physical project so it's printed on a sort of like accordion folded thing so it comes it bound comes in a box but you could actually unfold it and stretch it I think almost the

length of a football field and it is an illustrated version of the Bible um Story by story and so there's as I say the printed copy but also an audio a a augmented reality kind of thing but of course this is the challenge that as soon as you create something like that then the app doesn't necessarily work with future phones and everything like that um so now getting into one of my projects current projects here when I was out in grad school at Notre Dame they had a printed book showing in in explaining the illustrations in The Chapel at Notre Dame including the fact I don't know how well you can see it here but

um this is supposedly Jerome writing the Latin version of the Bible or translating the Latin version of the Bible and St Patrick is looking over his shoulder I know explaining to him that he made a mistake um you know all the great kinds of detail that you if you're looking at the pictures you're not sure what's going on but you could have the book with you and sort of walk through and as I was looking for projects here on campus I was thinking wouldn't it be great to do something with the stained glass windows here on at our at our College in the chapel but you don't have to just make it a princess book what what could we do

digitally and around the same time one of our digital media arts colleagues PJ Moscow was looking for Partnerships with professors because he had students that were going to be taking a video game design class and he wanted things to work with and I said I would love to work with you but we are not making a first person religion based a religion-based first-person shooter game we are just that is optic um but I said you know what could we do to look at the chapel windows and so initially I thought you know hey maybe we could get the architectural plans and just sort of draw it in you know various AutoCAD kinds of things and while that

didn't quite work and so the first version of this and this is where we will switch to the document camera hopefully uh the first version of this we used Unity which is a video game engine and um

and so this this is the interior of the chapel and we have various targets so that you can click on a Target and find out um if you don't know who St Thomas Aquinas was here's a little information or if you see the window at the back of the chapel and um you wonder what the images around the points of the clock are it can can tell you um now theoretically Unity will export this as a as a web viewable item because I'm sure you would all feel comfortable downloading this onto your phones right um it's safe I'm a nice guy um given the uh topic of our conference here I'm sure you can understand why

that would be problematic uh this is where as things change as new things become available sometimes we can redirect and shift our projects and so there is a program also through New York Heritage called I always forget Empire State immersive experiences there we go and so they have a whole collection of places in the state um and some of them here here in this area and uh everybody has they have they have gone with and they provided 3D cameras and so um everyone thought it was kind of funny that I was getting a Hero GoPro Hero and I'm like no I'm not buying this to go skydiving I I'm I'm buying this to use in um

in uh churches but um this actually this isn't a good example let me see here here we go this is um so I the ones for our Chapel are not uploaded yet but um this is this is similar and like with my phone app you can you can put targets and so um there's not any in this but but you can give extra information and the hope is eventually to go to many congregations in the area and make a virtual tour this is also a great way to preserve things as some some Churches go out of out of use there are a couple in in this list this slide was from a few years ago so I'm

sure some of them have been um you know changed or challenged projects like this and the technology in some ways democratizes things because as they say you don't have to provide expensive cameras and equipment to be able to do this people can go out with their cell phones and we've seen in the last couple of years how cell phone videos of events um uh of incidents with police and other things you know individual cell phone videos have documented in changed changed history without people having to have fancy cameras this allows us to preserve things but one of the challenges is awesome that um you know the question of who owns the materials uh or how do they get used all

the interviews that my students collected um from oral history projects I got permission from the people being interviewed to use these online um and you know I always insisted that the students be very careful in how they edit and clip things so for instance one student's mother commented about how she remembered as a child they would collect money for the Pagan babies at her Catholic Church um now contextually because this was pre-vatican II when the church had a much more aggressive attitude towards world religions that language makes sense but if that video clip went out there with just those words and without any kind of conceptualization and background that could be really problematic and this is also where

I I have I have many of these things archived and digitized and ready that they could go online I do have some concern about making them widely available particularly given the editing abilities that now there are you know it used to be you could tell very easily when something had been edited particularly if it was like the Conan O'Brien where you can see that the pictures there and the mouth and the lips are moving differently um but I do have some concerns particularly when people may have given permission to use something but not having known just how it would be used on the other hand being able to send people out being able to let people in

parts of communities interview their own people empowers people to share their voices and their stories as I said there are issues of format and compatibility that make it very challenging sometimes to continue to use the material this was part of our conversation with the library in terms of putting things on New York Heritage because you need in order to do that you need to make sure that it's keeping keeping with that um we also now have questions with with AI and and as I say you know if you if you digitize something you put it out there even if you put a copyright notice um you know or even if you put a a watermark on it it still can get used

um and this way is where in terms of preservation there was a time when I know a lot of churches would hire someone to come and put all their Church records on microfilm um talk about a nice you know permanent uh permanently accessible uh technology and once it was on microfilm they would just they would trash The Originals and um particularly now that things could be digitized or or modified uh just recently some friends were sharing pictures um some of my pastor friends are Geeks like me and someone was sharing a picture of a church book or church sign board that it turned out was actually faked um it wasn't quite as outrageous as the

the picture that Meme that was circulating would make it sound um but unless you have a way to document no this is what the original was this is what that document was that uh document I showed about the foreign speaking and negro neighborhoods of Buffalo um that's really something that you want to make sure you save The Originals so that if someone says well did they really say that you can show yes they said this and it wasn't you know if someone else had changed it um as with our previous presentation though this is really where this opens up so many opportunities some of them may be not as great as others uh this was from

a few years ago but someone created a and maybe AI would make it even more interactive a um blessing robot that you could go and you know type in your name or type in your concerns and it would generate a a blessing and a prayer for you um maybe some people would like that maybe some people wouldn't I don't think it will ever put clergy out of business but but I know some people were very confused and surprised by I do want to stop here are there any questions or comments I will be sticking around um I'd be glad to talk to any of you later

yes so I think like going forward I need to feel like a new wave of impressing multi-level archiving because like so like I'm in a Zine Community I do a lot of Charities being the point of things is that they're limited but um because the way the thing is now I don't want to be completely lost the time besides like the original PDF and like I um written by I could copies for a local comic book store and he keeps it in his digital archive people and he still but he has a record that is in his store right and like I think that's like the biggest issue I've seen going on with anything especially when it's like

word miles or printed out of somebody's house are handmade Etc they'll like we have to bring back more archiving right stuff is just like lost forever exactly well and particularly for like Community organizations um I know I I've heard of like churches where the the people in charge may be trying to be very careful about keeping all that stuff but then it's you know clean up day and someone goes into the room and says oh what do we need this stuff throw it in the trash can um you know it's a big recycle day you know on Monday and then someone comes in a week later and says where is that thing and it's gone

um and and so yes you know it's a huge issue and this also is in a way you know an overlap with with my archeology roots there was a time you know if you've seen Indiana Jones um and I do love those movies although so many problems with them you know there was a time when archeology was glorified treasure hunting and the the primary issue in Middle Eastern archeology was can we find palaces can we find texts and libraries and golden objects and things like that and so much else was just thrown in the Trashy and now archaeologists in the Middle East and elsewhere are collecting all kinds of information and they're sampling the the ashes from fire pits

there because they want to find out what people were eating and all those kinds of things and or or for instance at some sites they would just list and document that they found 12 grinding Stones um but they didn't keep them because those weren't important well more recent archaeologists have said you know well that actually talks about gender roles you know because if it was the women grinding the corn or the grain while um the men were doing other things um you know those things are important and we should we should actually save them because looking at the at the different Stones looking maybe what's in bed you know the dust that's embedded in them is

important but if you if you don't save it um because right now nobody thinks it's important it needs gaps and and um you know of course this is a problem then if you're trying to save it in your own house and you're running out of room um but but as I say that that that that's the challenge the flip side of course is that the poor Librarians here sometimes get just boxes of well my my grandfather was an Alum and died and um we're cleaning out his house so here's his stuff uh they really would much prefer if it can be sorted already um are working with our our Interfaith group in some cases we have

20 copies of the same annual report but they're in five different boxes and at the time it was really just a salvage operation because we were trying to get things out of the damp basement trying to get things out of the attic and so the the contents list says you know there's files from 1970 in this box and in that box and that box the next stop step is going to be to try to collate them and say oh we don't need all 20 copies of this but we want to make sure we have a good copy before we ditch all the others um but I want to leave time for Mark and Tyler to get set up and um thank you

very much and um um oh I do have to just share by one final thing um this is not well this is computer generated but but this is real um that is my face on a movie poster from India because when I took students to India in 2010 I got a walk-on roll in a film because um the guy said well we need extras what it really was is that they needed extras who looked like an angry British professor and so uh I am the face of British oppression um getting to say things like bloody bugger scalawag and stuff like that uh so thank you and um I hope to talk with you later in the

day foreign