Digital ID: A Success Story Or Dystopian Nightmare?

Hello London. How are you doing? Hi. Well, I lived in London 15 years ago. So lovely to be back. Now guys, so a couple of disclaimers. We got a lot of things to get out of the ways, but these basic four, right? So first of all, so um I don't want to tell you what to think about the digital ID. Okay? There's a lot of people who will tell you what you need to think and how you need to think. I'm not that person. I just want to give you some facts and some outline and you make up your own mind. So that's one thing and obviously I don't endorse any political party or any organization when

it comes to politics. I hate them all equally. I don't discriminate. Okay. Now uh I'm going to try in this presentation to make it very clear whether something has happened or has been told by the government officials or lobbies related to the current Labor government. But I will also give my predictions. So please pay attention just so my words aren't mixed up with the government statements. Okay. And yeah obviously well it discusses some the talk is going to discuss privacy matters and people have different attitudes towards that. However I just want to make it clear I discuss not identifying yourself but that doesn't mean that we are encouraging fraud of any kind. So just to get this out of the way now what's

the digital ID? So let's get the definitions. So there's a lot of different ways digital ID can be done and we are explore a couple of those and but basically it's just electronic credential that you can use to authenticate yourself remotely using electronic means. So now that we got it out of the way let's let's find out how we got to where we are now. So uh when we used to have national ID cards. Does anybody remember national ID cards? Can Okay. Well now I feel old. [laughter] Okay. So we used to so these were introduced about 20 years ago and then as soon as conservatives well coalition government took over they they took them

away and they had biometric identification. So they tried out the uh facial recognition and the trials were actually failed and uh there were were also used fingerprints and it connected to a wider database that featured people's addresses and other data for example from DVLA. Uh now uh how we so it was a long time since we had those so they were scrapped in 2010 sorry 2010 yes 2010. Now uh so initially the government didn't even put the digital ID in the manifesto and they announced that they were going to use digital wallet and we will be able to use our passports and driving licenses on our phone which is handy if if this is something that you like. Uh but that was

in January. So in September we are so we landed at digital ID that would be well the government doesn't really want to use that that word but it will be in essence mandatory if you want to earn money if you want to pay your rent it will be so there's that also I just just a quick one so uh I appreciate the talk covers a lot so if you want to take pictures for future reference please feel free to take the pictures of the slides or like message me later about getting them now so what do we know about digital ID. So there's a lot of worry, a lot of concerns about digital ID. So let's focus on what they actually

told us that's going to happen. So uh they told us that it's going to solve illegal migration. So in essence, the government claims that if somebody is unable to present the digital ID and they will be thus unable to find work and therefore they won't be uh as attracted to the UK. they it just will take away that incentive. Right? So uh also it's supposed to prevent identity theft. It's supposed to be secure and uh there they didn't announce what measures exactly they are going to take to to prevent misusing it if somebody for example steals your phone but there you go and it's going to be free form of identification. You usually if you want

an ID well most people would get provisional driving license right so you have to pay money so there's that. So there's that. So what else? So we've got some mixed messaging here because it's supposed to be voluntary. So but if you want to find a job, you need to have digital ID. So make up that what you will. So it will be on a smartphone. So everybody has a smartphone. That's the assumption. Actually, is there anybody in the room who doesn't have a smartphone? Okay. So at least that's accurate for this room. But I do know I know personally some people who do. I would love to get rid of it. Uh it's biometric so it will be based on facial

recognition and it will they say it will be used only for right to work checks but they also say that it will be used for different checks. So it will uh so for example it will be a boarding pass to getting on with your life. So for benefits, for filing uh any applications to government and uh also it the access to it will be expanded to private a uh entities. They will also be able to use it to verify your age at the supermarket for example. So that's what we know. So is it going to work? So let's examine those claims because it's it sounds good on the surface of it. So the the argument that government figures had was

that people very often lose their documents and if you have your ID on your phone then that takes that problem away and I tried to find out or obviously you can't compare apples to oranges so you need good statistics and unfortunately I didn't really manage to find it because the home office collects all these statistics about both lost and stolen documents. they don't differentiate between those and that's the issue because on the other hand we only have statistics about stolen phones but we don't have have reliable statistics on lost phones so we can't draw comp comparisons here so I think claiming that this solves any problem is a bit premature and also we need to take into account that the phone

theft is on the rise so it is going to cause potentially some problems Now, when it comes to immigration, well, if I'm well, if I'm honest with you, well, if if the employer on the black market doesn't want to check the ID, I don't think that ID being digital is going to magically force them to start checking it. So, there's that logical fallacy here. Um, and additionally, uh, if somebody is undocumented, well, they don't have they aren't going to get any digital ID anyway. So they you're going to have to do some background checks on the person in order to identify them. So there's that problem as well. But what people sometimes don't know well most

British citizens because they don't have to immigrate to this country, right? Is that legal immigrants already have digital ID and it works. And so I can show you how that works. Well, so if you have my LinkedIn, you recognize this picture. You might recognize it from previous talks, but that's me. Okay. Yeah. So basically what the way it works is all visas or visa holders if this is an immigrant visa can generate a shareholder. This is a one so this is a code that you can give to your employer or to for for example your landlord for any purposes. Well I I can can give you I can give one to you and if you know

somebody's date of birth and have their share code you go to government website and you get something like this. So you just see this is the the this is the person this is their picture first name last name and also if you click on legal basis of your status then it shows you like how long the person has been here and what visa they've got and if there are any restrictions like certain types of job or sponsorship required so it works and it doesn't give access to anything beyond that the employee doesn't see see anything more. So something to keep in mind. So there's no global sorry global uh national database that it is connected to other than the

immigration info. Uh right so government made also further statements. So these aren't recognized plans. So also lobbyist connected to the government issued some. So they announced that uh digital ID is going to enable the government to crack down on tax. Uh also it will be used to access health records. So in a similar way that you access the NHS app but you will use digital ID to authenticate yourself. Um law enforcement will be used to crack down on the economy. However, you will not be required to produce your digital ID if police asks you to. uh additional additionally for age verification for retail. So I've mentioned that uh also worth mentioning that co-op Asda and

other supermarkets are testing how they could use digital ID to for example collect data on their customers shopping. So they want to integrate that into loyalty programs. I'm not sure if the government will allow it in the future or not. That remains to be seen. And well in the future well there are some there there is also actually so there's al also actually some things to be integrated so for for sorry to be introduced so for example AI integration so not necessarily the the document uh the government but uh TBI so Tony Blair Institute for Global Change propose that we create a database with uh the where in which we collect the data from all

government departments about the citizens and uh then we train the AI on it. So we can then ask questions about citizens that's plan that's not officially recognized that's not introduced yet. So keep that in mind. Now one thing to re recognize is that this is just at like it doesn't I don't think that digital ID is bad or is good in and of itself. It has been used. It will be used just because and just because uh well sorry. So basically it depends how it's implemented. That's what we can can judge. It has disadvant disadvantages though. So let's focus on the upsides. So for example, majority of the EU countries do have some sort of digital

ID. This is not a unified system. So each country has its own framework. But EU introduced EIDAS. So that's the framework that allows mutual recognition. So EU citizens can use their ID and this is digital ID that's connected to actual physical ID to sign documents remotely for example and these also are you will be used in other countries. So for example, if you're from Germany, you will be able to use your digital ID sign documents and or petition in your doc your government using the uh using your digital ID in Finland, let's say. And in the future, that digital wallet will also contain all the documents such as uh for example uh educational records if you want to

present them to your employer or driving license etc. So in that regard kind of similar to what we plan here. So uh now the those digital ids don't even have to be connected to any centralized database about anybody. So uh in majority of EU countries so the best example is Estonia and Germany this is just connected to your digital ID and you just use it to authenticate whatever to confirm your identity and then if the service provider wants to create an account they create an account for you. So it's pretty much decentralized. Uh so al so so yeah we discussed digital signatures very briefly so I perhaps should have edited those slides better uh but yeah like that's it's not it's

not only EU countries also Singapore has a similar system in which you can use your physical and digital ID and to use it to sign electronically documents. Um and also there's upsides to it because people who live somewhere remotely or people who are disabled they are not always able to turn up in person and file any documents. So that's an upside also sometime in some EU countries you used to have well I think it it was the case in Britain if you wanted certain documents like say your birth certificate you needed to get it from the town you were born in. And as EU countries started introducing digital ID that allowed them to eliminate that

need. So you could just uh you could just request copy electronically. So it so also and I highlight well implemented right it does have the potential to reduce fraud if the authentication is strong if we introduce human in the loop. So we eliminate the possibility of somebody creating artificial digital ID or for or somebody doing that in somebody's name. Well, yeah, it does. Well, it's a better authentication than just using your your place of birth and uh uh using and sending the documents, bills, well, electric utility bills, etc. Uh but yeah, that remains to be seen. So the bad. So this is something that the media focuses on the most and I don't think that and it is actually fair we should

consider both sides. Uh and there's something to consider. So when things go wrong they wrong go wrong quite seriously. So for example in Canada they do have such a system introduced about the digital ID. So this is the their digital ID. It's used to access quite sensitive records. So that's your tax records and health records. And in 2020 it has been targeted and un and unfortunately well that resulted in a lot of data being scraped and it had to be disabled. So if you relied only on digital ID to confirm your identity and then this happened then for a couple of months you you were in trouble. you just weren't able to participate to do

anything if you needed something from government benefits uh checking your tax record etc. So if it goes bad, it goes bad epically. India as well. So India is an interesting example because in India well it wasn't even hackers targeting it. It was just an insider well a couple of insiders who decided to uh give access to citizens records and they sold it. And in unfortunately there wasn't there wasn't any accountability initially because the government just denied that it happened and they sued the journalist for raising awareness of it but they did admit in the end and again well it had to be temporarily disabled. So again somebody who didn't have a paper form of ID was in quite a

lot of trouble. So this so you might start noticing that this is a theme. So, so if you have to rely on a digital form of ID only and something goes wrong, that's when that's when things go ask. Now, what else can go wrong? So, these so these also these are my predictions. So obviously there's privacy erosion concerns because well if there's a framework in place you can start connecting the dots and uh if and there's just nothing stopping the government once the framework is in place there's nothing stopping the prospective governments from linking all the other data and making some assumptions about the citizens. There's function creep. So this continues from my previous point point. So it's

supposed to be focused on the work but we started noticing that the statements are slowly about using it for other purposes. It might be also commercial entities may might gain access and uh there was also talks on media about how it could be used for verification of age on social media. Well, frankly myself and again I'm not encouraging any fraud just to be it's just to be 100% clear but I don't want to identify myself to any social media. I did it for LinkedIn. I'm well perhaps I'll do talk about that for the next time how I've got verified on LinkedIn without giving them anything but but anyway yeah so there's also well it's so it can also

solve the problem of pe people being excluded due to disability or distance from larger city but it can also exclude people who either don't have a smartphone don't want to have a smartphone or their smartphone is up to date is not up to date and some people just can't afford to get a smartphone every 3 years to keep keep it up to date and uh to be able to use that government app. So there's that and there's surveillance risk because again if you federate the data and if government agencies are able to to share it and if you have that framework in place well you it takes either a bad actor or bad government to then use it in such a

manner. So obviously if biometric data leaks well there's not much that not much that you can do about about this. So there's that and uh also organiz is privacy focused organizations like raise risk raise awareness of how it can erode civil liberties. So that's concern and in theory it's voluntary but there's already pressure for most people to have it and uh that's and because well in effect you won't be able to get a job without it and our prime minister said that quite clearly. So a lot that we got have gone through now the ugly. So you probably anticipate the ugly example. So yeah our lovely China. Well, nothing against chi well nothing against Chinese

people but not necessarily the system that somebody is that that everybody wants to live in. That's the thing. So they have quite comprehensive digital ID that's oh sorry [snorts] okay um I'm so sorry about this. Yeah so that's for certain. So the way that system works, so you do have digital ID that you can use both on your phone and in some commercial apps like for like for for example WeChat and it collects all the data about your activity online. So so your social media activity is monitored. So if you ever notice like how China is able to shut down discussion discussion in seconds, this is how uh your movement is also monitored. you and and this is used to

monitor like for example ogres in China where they move and how you speak determines what places you are able to access. So if your social credit score is getting low because you are perhaps asking too many questions uh then you might find that you're not able to leave your town or you're not able to board the plane. Uh you're not even able to leave the country if you don't like it. So the you're out of options [snorts] and this is and this is precisely why some organizations raised that risk because uh because once that system is in place it can get to that point not to say it will but it could in theory. So

but like why do we assume that this is going to be negative? This is after well at the end of the day this is just a tool. This is this is not even yet in place and yet people are all negative about it. And I do have some insight on this. Let's analyze the communication. Okay. So first a little bit of history. So in Anglo-Saxon culture, so that would be Britain, that would be Ireland, that would be United States. We in general have liberal attitude when it comes to carrying government government IDs. No one expects us to have some on us all the time. It was uh apart from the World War II, it was never really the case.

And uh it's quite different in other even European countries. I'm mainly comparing European countries here, okay? For the sake of simplicity. Well, some countries do have legacy of communism and you always had to have ID on you and our authoritarian regimes as well. So there's also European country, well continental Europe tends to be especially Slavic and German Germanic countries tend to be more bureaucratic. So there's that and this is because they don't really like uncertainty. They like to know everything about the citizen document everything and well just in case we have different attitudes here in general like we are high trust society we assume that people are honest whereas continental Europe it's more like well

just it's better to check don't don't blame them but yes still it's it's also because we are more individualistic culture so some cultures especially focus on collectivism whereas we are more individualistic And this this is this also comes from religion. So we have so Anglican church is a Protestant church at least on paper and Protestant churches in general they they emphasize the separation of state and church and separation of state from uh private matters. That's how that's why the constitution of the US looks the way it does. Whereas uh Catholic church quite happily engage with the government and the priests well if if somebody was ever in Catholic church they will voice their opinions and they will lobby in certain

countries they will openly lobby for certain reg legislation and not the other. So that's basically cultural difference the digital IDs are more readily accepted on continental Europe because of that. So there's that. But I think also they just the government couldn't have announced it in a worse way really because people appreciate direct communication if I tell you straight what what is going on. You know you can trust me. You know what to expect from me. Whereas if somebody just can't make up their mind and it's mandatory but not mandatory but mandatory then you just don't know what is it that that person is trying to achieve that doesn't that doesn't cause anybody to trust you. So I So government

really should be more like Larry the cat. Well, cats are quite direct like cats are master communicators. If the cat doesn't if the cat likes you, you know, if the cat only likes your food, you also know that. So there's that. Uh so yeah, so it and also what I raised before is just that has not been tested on the ballot. People didn't have the opportunity to vote for it. So some Labor voters voted they didn't expect that and they just and they just caught in caught in this situation and don't know what to make of it and don't know whether they could trust this government in particular and well the criticism also has been dismissed mainly using

keywords rather than actually addressing the issues clearly. So, there's that and there's Yeah, I love what you love. That's a cute picture. Come on. Yes. But what what I wanted to talk about is that uh well, Tony Blair seems to be quite an important figure when it comes to digital IDs. And it's not really a conspiracy theory. I've got proof. Okay. Well, I'm not getting into conspiracy theories. That's theories. That's not really my cup of tea. Uh but he does have an outsized influence. So for so he created so obviously he introduced the digital IDs in the f sorry ids ID cards in the first place sorry about that uh and after he left the government about 10 years well nine

I think he left in 2007 never mind well I'm too old to remember so uh he so he created Tony Blair Institute for global change and that's a nonprofit and it advises the governments on all sorts of tech like to uh to well deliver widely uh consider widely well just some transformation like it's very very vague but what but uh in it so the last time we heard from TBI about any form of ID apart from uh normal ID was when they lobbied for vaccine passports. So they advocated digital health passports and they as soon as the pandemic started and we started identifying uh contacts or he suggested combining vaccination and testing status and that actually briefly

got introduced in Britain. Well maybe some of you remember maybe others were too traumatized by that entire period. So we had but we had to scan QR code in order to enter c certain venues and uh uh and we would connect it to contact tracing. So this is Antony Blair because well initially the government was against it and then they warmed up to it. So that considering these were conservatives that's quite impressive. So then he started lobbying for digital ID. So it he argued that it's going to increase growth in increase uh inclusion and uh and critic also he criticized the um EU for not introducing it sooner and then he also not him in particular but

TBI so organization associated clearly with Tony Blair uh advocate recommends creating national data library for AI research. So it would train as I mentioned. So it would train uh the AI on government data and it would cause and it would transform how we inter interact with government and we would be able to query the AI to well on paper uh determine citizens needs and direct the resources accordingly. So increasing efficiency. So there's that. So that's like so that's quite impressive resume and uh but there's a lot of criticism mainly because of conflict of interest. So um TBI is funded by uh by Larry Ellison. He's associated with Oracle. Anybody from Oracle? >> Okay. So I can Okay, I can continue.

Good. Right. Okay. Yeah. So, so they donated quite a lot, literally hundreds, millions of pounds towards TBI and T, so TBI pushes pushes all sorts of electronic ID for all sorts of uh purposes and uh AI actually does have vested interest. They do provide like databases and it in health in digital governance. They were also contracted by the government several times. So you could perceive that as conflict of interest. Well, they want to push the digital ID because well then they are going to have another contract from the government. So there's that but also it's just it's just it's per well it's perceived as chronicism basically. So uh and uh unfortunately again when when they are

asked questioned well so when TBI as in uh when they are questioned about their influence they just dismiss it outright. So again, you lack that clarity. That's the problem here. So again, repeated theme here, right? So what happens now? So uh so we had a parliamentary debate on the 8th. So that was this Monday. I don't know. Somebody tell me. I'm really bad with dates. Uh yeah, so it was this Monday. But uh you can watch it already. And my encouragement to you, regardless of what your stance on any of what I said is, is to watch it and to see who said what, like what criticisms were were raised and which politicians raised them because I think it is vitally

important that everybody is informed that you know what you're signing up for and you know who voted according to your preferences. So that's one. So you can read also the transcript. Now uh you know that there has been a petition and almost 3 million people signed that petition. Unfortunately well we are going ahead with the digital ID at least as it stands for now. So we can't really hope that the government is going to listen to the consultations but they are going to be open. They have been postponed. So the consultations were supposed to start this month but they have been pushed towards the first quarter of 2026. Yes. Am I correct? That's the next year.

Uh and al and while these IDs are going to be introduced as of as of now the plan is to put to make them mandatory for right to work in in 2029. So towards the end of the current government. So there's that. Um, so we'll see how that goes. Well, it's a developing subject. It's a very well it uh evokes all sorts of emotions, but I really hope that you got something out of it. There's there will probably be a lot more set in the future or at least I hope that the government gets some PR training, media training to communicate better so we have some clarity. But yeah, that would be it for me for for now. Well, if

there's well, I will can create another talk if there's some update. Uh, so yeah, thank you very much guys for having me. Um, do we have any questions? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> How would I stop in digital ID? Well, that's that's a tricky issue. So, I don't want to encourage uh uh kata. So, there's that. Uh, and that seems to be the only way. I don't know. Well, you can you can well, you can we can engage in wishful thinking in the hope that the government collapses and we have snap elections. Uh but yeah, like realistically, I don't think we can't stop stop it. It's unless there's some mass protests and the government figures that angering people

is going to cost them more than intro than introducing this digital ID and it's not going to yield the results that are going to uh that are going to be as impressive then yeah I don't think we can't stop it at the moment. Well, if there are protests, I would encourage you to go though because because if a lot of people engage in those, then well, there's power in numbers, right? Does that that answer your question though? >> Okay, cool. Yeah. Um you touched on uh EIDAS uh within the EU, >> but are they not currently working on a new framework for the EU digital identity wallet, which from my understanding has had similar push back

to the brick card idea based on the much more extensive level of information it collects. Um do you have any sort of uh more technical familiarity with uh the EU digital identity wallet and what are your general stances on that if so? my general so as in my opinion rather than my expertise. So I've got practical experience with how that works because I do hold EU citizenship. So the way it applies to me is well I basically have well I can have ID card I don't have to have it I but I can use ID card and I have a a the reader that I and if I want to file any petition then it does it

doesn't have to be any particular application that's the case like you can file any letter and you can use that to sign to sign a document and also if you want to authenticate uh even your email you can use you can use that but I don't have any particular expertise in it per se my opinion on it well if well to neutral really like it it works well there's there's countries that implemented it better and it's more decentralized there's countries that implemented more centralized approach but the way it uh affected me well it it didn't change much apart from the fact that it's quite convenient to be able to send a letter assign sign it as opposed

to printing back something and actually providing a signature because it's well it's treated equally. >> Okay. Thank you. >> No worries. >> Okay. Hello. >> Is there any um in the technical stuff is there any meaningful implementation of like zero knowledge proofs or federated ability to you know not give people the information you don't want to give them. >> Sorry could you repeat that please? >> It's sort of like is there going to be the you know in the proposal? so far I don't know how technical they are. >> Is there the ability to be granular about what you share with people and actually implement meaningful controls around sort of zero knowledge and proving your age about your date of

birth stuff like that. >> So uh that's the thing. So there's not a lot that the government gave us. So there are going to be three levels of uh of uh authentication as far as I've read, but there's just very minimal uh min very minimal documentation or on how that's going to work. And that's one of my main issues that the communication from the government about the technical aspects of it is quite patchy, inconsistent and also there's not a lot published but they already announced it and already managed to anger so many people and uh they don't even know what they are going to do. So they were so they scheduled a couple of meetings with

uh the experts from digital ID well with commercial providers of digital ID but uh like we don't we just don't know and when you have that vacuum well obviously there's a lot well you will start worrying right >> it needs some sort of consultation isn't it [snorts] >> yeah well there should be a consult yeah yeah yeah like there should be be consultations and they should have been conducted in my opinion once they have a proposal ready and before deciding that yes this is what we are going ahead with. >> Any other question? >> With how fast the original national card was scrapped um do you think with the current opposition to the dig to the

brick card will be scrapped as quickly as its free almost political power for opposing parties? This is an interesting question you know because because uh well I I as you will probably see especially if you read through the transcript of the uh of the debate the there's almost universal push back right even the the backbencher labor backbenchers are strongly against it and uh on the one hand that would stipulate that indeed the it might be scrapped very quickly if it were subject to vote then probably it it wouldn't pass but this is executive branch of the government so they can do whatever um but on the other hand there's benefits that the governments have from having

this digital ID as I tried to show like it does give you the option to expand it and increase control and my and again that's my personal opinion I think that because the government gives you so much power like being in the government right being uh gives you so much power it attracts the wrong kind of people And uh they might be tempted to once they are in power they might not be so against it after seeing the benefits and the benefits not to the citizens but to them. But that's my personal opinion. So keep that in mind. So yeah well they could be scrapped for all I know but well it's anybody's guess. My guess your

guess is as good as mine. Do you think that the the framing has had a big impact on the the general public's response to to the digital ID? >> The framing? >> Yeah. The the way that the message has been delivered and this >> Absolutely. Absolutely. I think well, first of all, I think that what I showed in the beginning, they are just advertising the benefits that aren't really there or can't be proven such as losing documents or such as immigration. It's well it's not going to affect illegal working on im immigration in a meaningful way. It's very unlikely and they don't really support anything that they claim with proof and the con and the conversation is quite inconsistent.

So yeah, it absolutely has an impact on on how people perceive it and how much trust they are willing to extend to the government and to accept and to trust those IDs ultimately. Yes. >> Okay. >> Hello. uh isn't the only phrase here that is a UK government IT project which means it will overrun be more expensive and never work >> well that that that is obviously an option well we we had a couple of false starts when it comes to dig digital idea when it comes government gateway for gateway for example so yeah I I I think that's likely Well, but I wouldn't want that to be the case because ultimately if that's the case, we are going to

suffer like we are going to suffer the headache. Okay. >> Yeah. One more. >> Um, if we look at one of the most arguably from the government's point of view successful implementations in China, obviously ignoring all the problems with it, has it achieved their goals of I assume reducing like you know crime and um illegal working and stuff there? Um well I don't I don't think it I don't think it did because there are plenty of illegal workers in China and gangs also operate. So it didn't really crack on crime and uh well if you look at it objectively there's no one magical tool that's going to solve all the problems of the world. There's no one magical

digital tool that's going to solve all the world's problem. And uh I think that due to it well I'm going on a rant here a bit but I think due to it being um due to it being government and government selling usually slogans rather than solutions I think it just to they just look for another catchphrase to justify the idea. So first they have idea and they are there saying oh this is going to uh crack down on crime even though it has nothing to do with crime like they repeat the phrase repeat the slogan until people start believing it without questioning oh hold on it actually doesn't make sense. So when it comes to

so yeah so back to your question so it didn't achieve the official aims such as cracking down on illegal working such as cracking down on crime eliminating violence etc. But it is still quite a vast system and it's very difficult to slip through the cracks for the normal citizens. So somebody who was born in China, who has a 9-to-f5 job or any sort of legal job and who has any presence on the internet, you virtually cannot have any presence on the internet without confirming your identity and with without government oversight. >> Okay. Thank you. Kinger King is around for the rest of the day if anybody's got any questions and uh she'll be volunteering in here this afternoon. So,

a round of applause.