Panel: Community - Panel

Right folks, welcome to the end of the day panel for Bit Le 2025. We're going to be discussing community today. So, I've got five of you panelists here. So, I want you to introduce yourselves and talk about what communities you run. So, >> uh JC Street, the uh Defcon Group's global ambassador. It's like uh this is actually my 10th year as the uh Lagoon and Defcon groups ambassador for uh Defcon. Okay. I'm Rosie Anderson. I run B says Leads, B says LS Manchester 2600 and I'm now part of Infosac Manchester. I run >> Yeah. You're bonk where I go, you go. Where you go, I go. That's how it works. Yeah. >> Uh legal bank and I run the cyber

brewery evenings and the lead cyber security conference as well as helping with bids. >> And your >> Oh, your cyber sec. No, it's a community thing. It's not about company, it's community. >> I just wanted you to say it. >> Your cyber sec. I'm not Glenn. >> If there was two of them, what would it be called? >> Your cyber sec junior and senior. >> Uh Sam Swift. Oh, everything you said apart from Manchester 2600. Um, also Seids. There's more stuff. Hacking Games, a Defcon goon. I just I'm a serial volunteer. I just cannot cope not having a job. It's It's just too much. There is something I've missed. I'm sure of it. Stuff all of it.

>> On your >> I need to fly you to Chicago and you can come. >> I come to Chicago. >> Um Cat Fitzgerald. I run Bside Chicago. I'm on the volunteer steering board for global bides as well. And I run CFPs for a whole bunch of other B sides. And I travel around with a puppet. And And we both volunteer a lot. Yeah. >> Amazing. So, we've got quite a wide variety of folks. Yes. So, one of the first questions I'm going to ask you is how would you bridge the gap for non-cyber folks to break into the industry and specifically break into the community? >> Who wants to go first? >> Don't all I never volunteer first because I always

talk too much. So, it's like I always let somebody else have have a shot. So, how many people here don't work in cyber? >> There we go. >> But would like to a lot less hands there. >> Who didn't keep the hands up? >> Yes. >> So, this is what Bides is all about. It's helping. It's helping communities. It's helping build community. So, if you want to get into the cyber security industry, I'm an ex recruiter. I am reformed. Um, the best thing to do is to network. And whether that's DC groups u like we have a DC chapter I don't think it's an official DC chapter anymore but we have a DC chapter in leads whether

it's 2600s so 2600s are meetups that are monthly bides are great but they're once a year you don't build community once a year so if you find those networking groups whether it's BC groups whether it's 2600s they meet monthly and that's where you'll find opportunities so the best kept secret in recruitment is you can find your own jobs you can find jobs that no other people don't know about by building networks and you build networks that networks. That would be my advice. >> I think one of the best ways to get people that aren't into uh hacking or cyber security to get involved in groups. Does effing be inviting? It's like one of the hardest things that you

get to when you get to a conference. is like not it may be hard to explain but a lot of people that are in the hacking community are neurodeiverse believe it or not I know it's a shock to a lot of them >> overthink that for a minute >> it might be it might be socially awkward and stuff you know who don't aren't able to just go up to go hey how you doing I'm just so excited to be here no it's like get the away from me right it's like but just have that kind of environment and so you get the uh groups that are like um gives you that stepping radio. >> It's like you get that stepping point

into like the introduction to the community at a local meetup before you go to a conference where it's like a whole bunch of pressure cuz you going got a finite time. It's like you got to go here, you got to do a lot of people village, you got to go over here and check this out. There's a talk that you wanted to go to and you want to meet everything instead of just having a nice night at the pub and you get to meet people and you get to like figure out what's going on and what it's about. So, I think that's a good way to start. It's like, but also the uh conferences need

to make sure that they're letting everybody know that you belong there. >> Yeah. >> It's like if you want to show up, show up. It doesn't have if you're a plumber and you just want to see what this hacking thing's about, you're welcome. >> It's like come on in and learn. It's like it shouldn't be like oh, you're not in the business. It's like I I don't need to talk to you. It's like no, it's like just we need people to just understand that it's welcome for everything. Everybody wants to be that dark mysterious figure of the arts of of hacking. And it's like and it's ridiculous. It's like I'm sorry that you were a nerd in school and got picked on,

but it's like it's the real world now. And it's like you need to be more open because what people don't understand they fear and what they fear they try to destroy. So good luck with that dark mysterious uh outfit and see how that works out for you. So, it's like, so just be more open about who you are and what you're doing and be proud of it >> and stop killing yourselves getting advanced degrees. This is going to be controversial, I know, but I've helped so many people um to just take the stuff they do in their home labs and they go and they've learned more in in 6 months than they ever did at any university and

and we put it all on a resume and they go and apply and the next thing they know they have entry. It may only be entry level positions in security, but they get in because they have the drive. Um, great if you have a degree, but I keep seeing so many people that go, "Well, I'm going to go back and get my masters and then my PhD." And I've said this before. I was interviewing a senior um engineers oh about half a year ago and he kept saying, you know, I have my masters in cyber security. I said, "Great. What's the difference between TCP and UDP?" And his response was, "Oh, that's easy. TCP is encrypted." So, it

just it just doesn't work all the time. Find what makes you learn and focus on that. And if it is a degree, go for it. But that will get you into this world of cyber security. The knowledge you give yourself. >> The paper gets you an interview. It's like what you know and the passion and the and the drive you have will keep the job. >> No, I will add something to that. >> If you write your CV and all it talks about is your degree as a graduate. Just a little tip here. Do you know who else did the same as you? All the people on your course and all the people who are

graduating that year. So you need to write your CV about all the extra stuff you do. So if you are a student, put on there that you go to Bside, put on there that you go to meetups, put your home labs on there because even doing a screen now doesn't guarantee you a job at entry level. There's so much demand for entry level positions. I think just going back to community like how can we make conferences more accessible. Um one of the things I love that we do at Bonore and like it's our bed is probably packing up all in the car park all lost roaming around leads now. Um is one of the things that we

added in last year and it went down really well was sidetrack and we had people talking about things that weren't cyber security. Um, and those talks were absolutely brilliant. But everything from mushrooms to movies to zombies to bats to >> just mad. It was brilliant. >> Um, and I think it is it's quite commonly you'll get if you especially if you're called papers review board is like the the elite hacksaws with the old days. They say, "Yeah, yeah, we want code going past." And it's it makes things inaccessible. having different types of talks, having different types of tracks, having people just talk passionately about things they love. Then, you know, people more people will come in and then they'll get talking

about the other stuff and they'll go and they'll pick a lock and they'll go to some of the one tracks or whatever it might be. I think we can all be guilty of, you know, oh, is it hacking? It's not just hacking. Hacking is hacking is curiosity really. It's grassroots level. What can people be curious about? And that's when things get interesting. to touch on the bit you mentioned earlier. I do. I'm a big fan of the pub slap room generally. But um really the social event piece is like when you're running around during the day it's sometimes it's really hard or intimidating to talk to people. Going to the extracurricular events whether you drink or whether you don't fine but you

can meet more people kind of outside of the conference and it is people buy from people hire from people. that is a really good place to to make make new friends and that will help a lot in your careers like we never we were friends so um taking part in the extra stuff that someone new over lunch did we do for the Pac-Man rules did we >> it was on the it is on the >> Did anyone see the Pac-Man rule in the on the day >> it's really nice it just keep open the group open the circle let people come in because how many people it's their first B And you get your first security

conference >> to see Glenn Yol. >> I mean, he does forget he's old. >> Yeah, >> you've been before, Glenn. >> It's okay, dear. You had a ball. Um, >> but lovely seeing new people, by the way. Thank you for coming as your first one. I really genuinely hope you've enjoyed it. Um, we're lucky in the UK we have so many of these. I think per per head, per capital, whatever, we've probably got more besides than any country in the world. Um, which is great because, you know, we live in this tiny little island. There's loads more of them to go to. So, whilst it's a once a year thing, >> actually, there's a huge calendar in the

UK. >> You can do one a week probably. >> You can definitely do one a month. >> They're out. There's a lot. >> Yeah. >> Um, and then when you get to go to some of the ones in other countries as well, it it's fantastic. And I've been lucky. I've been to Las Vegas, San Francisco, uh def camp wasn't by Bside, but it's kind of same community sometimes. If you can get on a board, especially if you can get works pay for it, even better. Um but if you are breaking into the industry, aim for a company that will pay you to go to some of these places because it's brilliant. But yeah, honestly, just keep networking, keep

making friends. We're all here for the same reason. We want to make the world a better place. Some of us want to watch the world burn at the same time, but try to make it better whilst it's on fire. Like today with bloody. >> Yes. So from my side, obviously being one of the organizers of Bside Leads, I've absolutely I love this. This is great. I'm probably the least technical person on the organizational team. Um just I have no issue asking sponsors for money. So these things can go ahead. That's why I got pulled in. Um but one of the things that really stands out is the community. But um I was talking to you know the feedback from today has

been fantastic. Some people have said it's been you know brilliant talks and they've all been you know some of the best technical talks that there's been as well. So one of the things that I started with the lead cyber security conference was to take it even take it further away from the technical as well to really try and bring home the message of that cyber security can is for everyone and you don't have to be able to understand the technical side of it. It's um you know I get people doing talks on um I had one guy who his talk was how scuba d how understanding this saved his life scuba diving in Mexico um

you know it's a completely different take on some of the talks um and then my side brewery evenings is it goes back to the minister it's in the name brewery is but I find a good bar a good pub and I organize a night where we get a guest speaker in and everyone who attends gets free food free drink and it raises money for charity as as well. But it's all about bringing everyone together with it as well and kind of lowering that thing. You know, we try and use the Pac-Man rule as you call it >> um in there as well. And it's just about trying to bring everyone everyone in because what I do find is the cyber

community as much as you know as you mentioned everyone's quite neurodyiverse and stuff. Everyone's really [ __ ] friendly and it's great every you know everybody kind of wants to welcome everyone in. Everyone is happy to chat because you know everyone's got a story to tell and everyone is tends to be a very very friendly and inviting uh inviting crowd which is fantastic as well. You can see here at B size as well it really stop. >> So the the five of you have touched upon the next question quite well but I'll just I'll ask it anyway in case there's any extra bit you want to add on to it. Is there any opinion that you guys have

of how and where best to start or do more to basically try and bring more people into the community? Is it touched upon the likes of your pub night brewery? >> I think I think that's actually for the audience like when you go back to work or home, college, university work, wherever um tell people about these sides, tell people about what you've done at the weekend, tell people about how cool you is and spread that message. Um, you know, we welcome people from all all backgrounds. I think we're a really inclusive place. We have a code of conduct, but actually we need more people to be aware and whether it's making themselves more secure. Personally,

if they're aware of these roles, if they're aware about the community, they will come and ask questions and then everyone's going to be more secure. That's what I would say. I'll give you all a little task when you go back to wherever, tell people about the community. >> I need to bring a pen to >> Yeah, we should. We do need a break ticket. >> Something like that. >> We have a massive weight list anyway, Sam. >> I just hope we need a bigger building. We need a smaller building. >> Yes. >> Sorry, can I just chip in for a second there? Um, I'm not a panelist. I'm just a random idiot. But >> going back to what you were saying

before about what's on a CV and I know there's people here that are recruiting and there are people here that are trying to break into the industry and everywhere in between. And it was years ago now. I was interviewing I was the interviewer for um at the time a tech support position. And there was two of us. There was my boss who was doing all the touchy feel HR stuff and there was me do doing the tech side of it. And we interviewed this guy um and he was a car mechanic u wanted to get into it. he wanted to get into computers and it responded to the advert and the way I did the

interviewing at the time I was I didn't have a set list of questions I would tweak it so that if someone knew a lot more I'd ask them more difficult questions and this guy was absolutely bloody clueless um so I changed tag and I like chat comes to you car doesn't work what do you do and he said oh well I'll pull the fuel line and if if there's no fuel any fuel pump might be broken and if there is fuel then I'll pull a spark plug to see if there's a spark and bang bang bang absolutely perfect binary problem solving >> um my boss didn't want to take him on I push really hard and I got my way he

turned out to be one of the best engineers we ever had >> it's a mindset >> I think I think it's one of the things it's like paper like I said gets you the interview but it's like one of the things that you can't teach is that passion and that ability to want to learn and to want to like find out why it's not working. Oh, you're wise or trying to solve the problem. It's like that's something that is very hard to like just instill in someone. They got to have that. It's like so I think that's one of the key things you got to look for is you may not know everything the way it's supposed to be done, but

can you learn it? Are you interested in learning it? Does it give you a challenge? It's like I tell people it's like um when you're trying to like get a job because you do a lot of self-gateing. A lot of people do a lot of self-gateing when they're trying to get a job. And I say look, it's very simple. Channel your inner mediocre white man. Okay? It's like because I have never met a me I'm a mediocre as a mediocre white man. It's like I anytime I've done an interview someone's asked me a question I didn't know like it's never like oh you're right I shouldn't do that or I shouldn't apply for that job. I don't have those qualities. No, I

can do that probably. I can. Yeah, I have that audacity. Yeah, I think we can make this happen. And when I get the interviews like, do you know this technology or do you know this? I'd be like, I don't. And most people it's like who are self gatekeeper, oh, you're right. I don't know that. I'd be like, no, I don't know very well. Give me the night. It's like I can do some googling. And I said, and trust me, you're going to be able to teach me the way you want it done. And it's like there's never a no. It's never I don't know. It's always going to be I can learn it. And it's

like and that's what they're looking for. It's like and I see so many people that talk about like yeah they were deploy I was trying to apply for this job but oh they didn't they required this they required that and they required that. I'm like what those are suggestions. It's like it's like the question you need to ask. Do you want the job? Then screw the suggestions apply for the job. It's like and then make everything else sort out. Okay. It's like if I was if I had to depend if I was qualified for a job, I'd still be homeless. Okay? It's like this is just it wouldn't work. It's like you just have to channel that like sure, I can do

it. It's like and believe it. >> So, the best job adverts tell you what problem they want to solve. And you're right. Um again, the background, those job lists, normally they're old. Normally that job advert or job description was written 10 years ago. Half the time when you the first thing you used to do was speak to the person who's hiring and okay what's the problem that you need to solve and if you can figure out from the job description what problem they want you to solve then when you apply you can custom will tailor what you're doing and how you can help them solve that problem. They don't really give a [ __ ] about the five years

you shouldn't or the cyst or whatever you need to be entry level with assist with all that [ __ ] They don't know >> 10 years experience. >> Yeah. even though you've only just started. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If you are a hiring manager in this room, >> please, please, please stop this [ __ ] Right. >> If you want feedback on your job descriptions and how they could be better, how they could be more inclusive, how you can like change what you're doing so you get a different pool of people. >> Like there's plenty of people here are happy to help. I'm not going to sign up for all of it, but seriously, the amount

of time the job descriptions just copied and paste and copied and pasted and copied and past. >> Wait, to be fair though, if you you're the ones that do job postings, don't change it too much because as someone who robs companies, I love the job postings because it tells you what technology you're using and what what systems you have. Please keep that in there cuz that's help very helpful for me. So, it's like I appreciate that. >> Defenders in the room though. Do the opposite. I always go to job listings for that. It's like >> seriously and they just literally will will like library that [ __ ] for you. >> Yeah, it's mad. >> They'll show you their infrastructure

needs in now. >> A job advert is different to the job description of two different [ __ ] documents. Your job advert attracts people and the problem you want to solve. Your job description is the HR [ __ ] >> Yeah, >> that was a lot of swear. >> It was. But it's going winds me up knowing for that reason. It's like we, you know, Einstein's got a quote for you. Guess what? You know, you want a different result. Stop doing the same damn thing. >> Um, it makes a massive difference. And I think for getting different types of people in cuz we need to have different mindsets to solve the problems cuz we've, you know, we're trying with the

same ones, it doesn't always work. Um, that is that is a huge bit of the issue. For those of you job hunting, it it's soul destroying sometimes because even when you can do it, not just through mediocrity when you actually got those things and you still don't get through because the bloody AI that's in the way. Like we've got to think differently about this cuz we're not getting the right people coming through into the roles and we're putting people off by having stupid job descriptions that have been the same for the last 10 years expecting people to have experience they can't possibly have because they haven't been alive that long or that technology hasn't existed that long.

>> Yeah. Please can you know cloud security for the last 20 years? >> Um, last minute. >> I'm curious if I asked the entire room how many of you could describe how an email message is sent from beginning to end through all the servers, the services encryption authentication etc., etc., etc. How many of you could answer that today? >> And there's part of the problem. We've forgotten the foundations. >> We've forgotten the foundations of security. And we wonder why we spend all this money, but breaches continue to go up. Why? Why is that? Where where are the people that built this and understand it and and know how it all works. Oh, they're retired. They're out.

Yeah. >> Well, they're living their best lives right now. And that's part of the problem. It it's like like you know the example I gave. But I still see people that that well I can write code. Okay. But can you tell me how encryption works? If you're going to write something that's going to do some encryption. Uh well no. I don't know how that works or I don't know how to set up a session or how to do key exchanges or any of that. And I'm like, okay, well, maybe we need a different person to take this position. I don't know. It it it frustrates me. That's all it people are learning all the fancy

acronyms, but nobody's learning um how to do ACL's in the cloud. Um there was a great talk on misconfigurations today. So all of it ties together. So for bringing people into the communities where the question was I think originally go on a tangent diversity right it's a life >> um just talk to each other I think that's pretty much what I was going to say is you know just talk I mean as you said we'll go off on tangents here there and everywhere we all do cuz it's when you get passionate about something you realize something any worse but you know this as said it before everyone's friendly um for the most part just speak to each

other you know share experiences where you've been share about Bside share about death bond share about um N2600 you know just share all these different things cyber the lead cyber security conference o you know Thursday 16th of October 2025 >> it'll go on it'll go on just speak to each other and just share your experiences I think that's how we're going to bring the community together more or job descriptions um as well >> yeah every hacker here wants to share their hyperfocus with somebody, >> ask them about it. It's like if you don't know what a conversation breaker is or like oh so what do you hack? What do you like hacking? It's like what what

are you here for? What were you hoping to learn here? It's like just start off with a conversation like that. It's like and just you you're in the lockpick villages with other people. It's like share a conversation. You got something just to be part of. It's like we're all in the same tribe. It's like it's like it doesn't matter. It's like where we come from is like we're all part of the hacking tribe. It's like it's like you're among friends and >> you know what's fun? Ma make a sticker of your own design. You know, make something be and then print them up and bring them to an event. We love stickers. And if you're

not comfortable talking to other people, stickers are some of the greatest ice breakers out there. >> Y question. >> Yeah. So um I just want to build on this tiny little bit and I'm sorry C very slightly disagree with the point you made about learning the basics here. I am a hiring manager. I'm nobody particularly important but I can teach people security. I can't teach people enthusiasm for security. >> Yeah. >> Right. Come to me with genuine enthusiasm for doing this job and I will give you a career. And I cannot teach you that anything yet and everything else I can help it. >> And that's why this community is so important because if you're here I mean

I'm not good with it's Saturday, right? >> So you're here on a Saturday. I know it's like you're here on a Saturday. >> Don't tell me you don't have anything other to do with stuff, you know? It's like I mean it's Saturday. It's like I mean you can be quite no man's guy right now. It's like so to be here and to understand you already show that you have that passion and trust me there are people in other companies here that are looking for the people that are here at these kind of events that are here at night and stuff you know at the meetups because those are the people that care and get it and stuff and so that's what

you want to look for and that's why this community is so important. It's not just about the money or the job. It's about finding other people that share those interests and being able to like finally show like, oh, I like this as well. It's like and someone else likes it. I'm not as weird as I thought I Well, I mean, I'm still weird, but I think I'm not alone. >> And now that's great. >> Yeah. >> We got a question over there. >> Yeah. So, how would you recommend to people to make the community more welcoming to people who can't come to these events? Whether that's because they've got family, they've got disabilities, they can't spend time on a evening or a

weekend. A lot of people have been affected by illness over the last few years. >> Yeah. >> Um and might not be com comfortable coming to >> person events. how we make that more accessible. >> I did. Oh. >> Oh. >> Um I got in trouble at first, but it turned out okay, so it wasn't too much trouble. Uh at Defcon 28, uh when it was online, it's like I created the Defcon Group Global VR Village. It's like it's like it was just a VR meetup where everybody get to come from all over the world, get to get into this VR world. It was awesome. And uh there's uh they still have those virtual meetups every

once in a while. DC uh 407 in Orlando, they have a huge Discord and they put all their uh and they stream live their talks when they're in person or they'll do virtual talks that are still streamed and then they put those on YouTube. It's like I if you're in a group, it's like with that and you're trying to you should have a Discord. It's like you should have a YouTube channel. You should have a way to disseminate that information so people can at least see it and be and feel like like, okay, I'm part of that group. I join that Discord. I talk. I I make have conversations with people. And you may not get to go there,

but you're still being able to communicate and get in touch with other hackers that you know are tangibly in the same area. It's like some of them may be from other I mean I'm uh in different groups from like all over the world in Discord, but it's still it's like you're still part of it and it's like and that's what counts. You're still part of something. So I would say they should branch out more. make sure they've got a website, making sure they have means of of doing a stream or making sure that they're doing a YouTube or something like that channel for that. >> You had a question. >> Yeah. Well, it's actually a

contribution. I think if we're discussing the community piece, we need to show people or jump hunters examples of people who have actually applied these principles and not succeeded, but at least have things work for them, which is why I'm speaking now. Uh I've only been in the UK for about a year and six months and I got to start up in Manchester, have a job at least now. Um and I pretty much joined every single cyber security community up in Manchester and the wonderful people you can see up here now pretty much helps me. So um I'm only speaking up now cuz I want people other people to see that it actually works. I have a job now. Um but

obviously I worked hard. I did everything I had to do on paper as a study but I also connected with people and then when I got the job of like oh you know this person you know this person you know this person obviously you can tell that I was enthusiastic I've gone down to these events I connected with people cuz then sometimes if you're a hiring manager think about it on the flip side you don't want to hire someone who you're not sure is a real human um if you check my LinkedIn page it's pretty much oh I was at intersect last week I was at that event I was at that event connecting with

actual real people. So, you can tell that I'm enthusiastic. But again, um this actually works. Thank you. >> And one of the things I want to add to that is volunteer. >> This conference would not exist. Screw the speakers, myself included. This conference wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the volunteers. The ones that are downstairs taking tickets, they're missing out on on the talks and missing out on the on the fellowship. the ones that are putting in the hard work and come in before the conference starts to load out the boxes and stuff. It's like cuz hoodies are heavy in bulk, okay? And and and do all that all those green shirts. That's what makes it possible.

>> And so you can put that on your resume that you're part of. You're actually putting in work for the community. That says something.

I think we should end on that almost. There's one more question. Yeah, that is such an important point. >> Sorry the other way. Do you think you perhaps expect a little bit too much of people who work in technology cyber security that we expect people to want to have their career also their hobby? I mean I can't really think many of the careers but that was almost an expectation. It's weird, isn't it? We do like the whole even like training is expected of you. You do that in your own time. >> Yeah. >> It's weird. I mean, honestly, if your if your company's got a decent enough setup, your training should be part of your job that happens during work time.

>> Yeah. >> I have to say though, it's completely alien to me to not do this in my spare time cuz I love it. But it's love rather than feeling like I have to. Um I think there's plenty of people I do meet who aren't actually part of >> No, I think I think you have to I think that the numbers are a little skewered because of where we are. Yes, >> we don't see nothing. 90% of this industry doesn't know who the we are. They literally they have that thing that they do um what's it called? Um a life they literally come in at 9:00. They manage the firewalls. They manage the ID systems. They work the sock. They clock

out at 5. And then they do weird things on the weekend and stuff like be with family or or play or play or something like that or you know it's like it's weird. It's like it's like I'm not going to judge them. Okay. It's like do their you do you boo. But still it's like that's what they do. 90% it's like and only about I would say 8% of that 100% is the community. The 2% is the scene. It's like where they're just cosplaying. It's like but but 8% you're part of the 8% of the community that believe it and work on it. But no, not everybody who who is in security. This is not their passion. This is not

this is their job. It's like this gives them their 401k and their health insurance. It's like so >> you're in England. >> Yeah. >> NHS on Saturday. Oh, I forgot I'm in the company that actually, you know, takes care of people. But still, it's like um that's one of the things you got to understand. So, yeah, there not everybody is like that. This is we're not the normal. Exactly. So, yeah, we're the exception to those rules. It's like, but the majority of the industry is not part of the community. They're not aware. Some of them aren't even aware of the community. It's like, so, uh, which is sort of refreshing because they're doing the hard work of keeping the internet,

you know, money. It's like, so we need them. It's like, so keep it up. >> You want to see that? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's a suit sellout right there. It's like, he does great. It's like, you know, and he's securing infrastructure, an important job, and that's what it's about. >> But you can do this and have a life. I'm a drummer in two bands. I'm a photographer that shoots about a dozen nonprofits a year. I shoot 12 weddings a year. >> So you have ADHD issue. >> I mean, you can do all of this stuff. And yes, she said, "I don't sleep." Okay. >> Yeah. Right. You are amazing. >> You can find a way to do these things.

You don't have to eat, sleep, and drink in sec. >> Have a life. It's worth it. >> Yeah. Exactly. It shouldn't be everything. There's always No Man's Sky. It's like uh or Starfield. It's like so >> and I jump out of airplanes. So >> that's always fun. >> 300 315 times now. Going for my D license so I can be an instructor. Would you would you do a tandem with me? >> We'll make that up. >> Not going to be a challenge to have next year. >> Yeah. >> I'm not doing this. >> There is one little thing that I was promising that I was going. Nope. Cuz he said he was going to bring it up and he

didn't bring it up. Oh yeah. You want to talk about Defcon group? >> So yeah. So he I was approached earlier about the whole thing about Defcon groups in leads. DCG leaves uh disbanded. It's like uh because of a whole bunch of stuff that was going on from the main Defcon groups or or it was just bad timing because it happened right around that. And I wanted to make sure that I at least had a moment to address that. It's like I wasn't going to but he brought it up. So it's like I'm like I'm I'm going to hold you to it. I want to make this something perfectly clear. As the Defcon Group's official fanboy, okay? And the Defcon

Group's global ambassador, please understand something. I don't give a what you call it. Don't have to say it's got to be a Defcon group to mean something. If there's hackers meeting in the community and and joining a community, I've been to Neist groups. I've been to 2600 groups. I've been to just random uh pubs where they just meet every once in a while in a different country. It's like that's a community. That's what's important. It's like Defcon groups was a banner to get other people that don't know about Defcon, that don't know about hacking. It gives them something like a sense of familiarity because Defcon is a well-known conference. people know about it because the news and because of

shenanigans and because you know Marcus uh malware tech blog got arrested there. It's like all those other wonderful things associated with Devcon, right? It's like so it created that banner but people like have a familiar like oh I know Defcon I know where it's like okay it's like that means where the hackers are. That's what the Devcon groups is about. is just providing that space for hackers that want to learn more and get connected with their local community. But I don't mind that it's not a Devcon group. I mind if you stop meeting up, if you don't keep that sense of community. It's like that's what's important people. It's like you have something special in leads. I don't see it in a

lot of cities. There's a lot of I don't see this. It's like where you see this kind of community. This kind of group's working together. It's like this guy's throwing a whole different kind of conference and stuff, but he's still working with this one. It's like I mean, that's what it's that's the hacking spirit. That's what the community is about. It's about that interoperability. But the most important thing a Defcon group or a community does, it shows someone they're not alone. that all this time. One of the biggest things that I dealt with when I was younger was I thought I was the only one that thought like that or dealt with something or dealt with this. And so I

was always alone cuz I was told it's like this was the 70s. I'm old. It's like it's like they didn't know these things. So it's like I always felt that outsider. When you provide a community, the most important part that you're giving to the people out there in a regular like in in a house or like they just go by a pub and they just happen to show up at the pub, wander there, they get to realize they're not alone. There's other people like them and that it's okay to hang out and meet and talk about computer stuff and it's like and it's not weird. Okay, it's still a little weird, but but it's acceptable

and it's awesome and it's fun. That's why we have the community. It's like it's because we want to make sure that we're sharing that information, sharing that message, and letting other people know, hey, you're not alone.