Empowering Neurodivergent Individuals in Cybersecurity - Strategies for Inclusion and Success

Tamry Jutin has been a cyber security professional with a unique background. She was a clinical psycho in clinical psychology for 16 years dealing with neurode divergent individuals and is going to be speaking to us on empowering neurode divergent god can I speak well empowering neur neurodeiver [Music] individuals in cyber security something that should be near and dear to all of our hearts we all know that just about anybody that I've known in the in there is some neurode diverency. There is no such thing as normal. Neurode divergent is a new normal and here's how we get better inclusion into it. Thank you Tamry. >> Thank you. Thanks you guys. It's so good to be here. It really is. Um when I first

moved to Chicago and I started clinical psychology, can you guys hear me? Okay. Yeah. Okay. Uh we actually had our clinical meetings in this building and um it was like the start of something really meaningful for me. So, I don't you guys aren't aware of this, but you're like on a personal journey with me today. I feel like the universe has given me like a full circle moment because this is my first um cyber security talk and and we're in this building. So, it's probably the start of something good. So, um anyway, thanks for being here with me. I really love this topic and I'm so happy that so many of you came out after maybe some of you are have

have attended ThoughtCon and are feeling tired um and you can join me in this conversation. So, I I think it's going to be um really fun. I I love talking about this. Um it's something else I just wanted to mention before we move on is um when I made the switch over to cyber security, I noticed that there were a lot of really smart people, like very brilliant minds. And um some of the environments were just not set up to support those individuals. And so I was thinking, gosh, if there was only a way I could sort of bridge my previous experience to what I'm doing now and maybe be very useful um in some way. And

so again, it's a little cheesy, but I'm just really my heart is like so full of gratitude and I'm just really excited to be here and I'm glad that other people want to learn about this too. So um okay, so we can talk about um just the agenda for today. So we're going to first talk about what specifically is neur neurodeiver neurode divergence or neurodeiversity. Um we'll talk about the benefits of neuroincclusion. um and then talk about common challenges that we might be facing. Um and then at the end work through some solution framework that I think are pretty simple and um like scalable and affordable and all that stuff. So um in the end we'll

probably have time for questions answers. Um and hopefully today everyone can leave with something that's that's actionable and it feels really manageable and doable. That's my goal for the talk. Um, so when I give talks, I like to um have a fair amount of audience participation, but I know that we're a small crowd today, so some of you might be vulnerable to participate or um maybe you just don't learn that way. So it's totally fine too, but if you are comfortable and you want to participate, um the first thing that I would ask you to do is make a list of environmental inputs. So you can put it in your phone, you can just think about it in your

mind. Um, so by environmental input, what I mean by that is just anything in the environment that's affecting your body. So it can be anything. Um, earlier today I heard sirens going by. That was something that I just noticed. Um, I was also sitting right by the air conditioning earlier and it was like freezing. So that's something that I noticed. Um, what's another example? Maybe you're sitting next to um someone who has coffee and you're smelling it. Maybe your shoes feel weird. I don't know. Um, all that stuff. Maybe the speaker is sort of like like flickering. I I don't know. So, whatever you're noticing in the environment that's affecting your body, just make a list.

And if you could really think about it, um, you know, maybe you could have a list of like eight or 10 things, like kind of a lot. And I think that's a lot. So, um, start doing that, I'm going to introduce myself in the next at the next slide. And while I'm doing that, um, you know, you can work on your list and then we're going to talk about it afterwards. So, um, I already said when I moved to Chicago, I was here as a clinical psychologist. I actually moved originally to be just to go to graduate school. I planned on leaving right away, but I end up staying. Um I really like I really love Chicago actually. I worked

primarily with autistic individuals. Um and we I did a lot of consulting with school districts and classrooms, clinics, um different offices, individuals, and of course families. Um I did a lot of managing for clinical programs with families in their homes and in their schools. So that's um that's sort of where I'm coming from. Um I recently changed paths to uh cyber security and sort of a long story as to how that all unfolded. Uh but um but I'm I'm just really excited to be here and so far it's been a good experience. So thanks for having me your community. Um, and as I had mentioned before, I just um I'm excited to have an opportunity to

talk about neurode divergence because I feel like it's such a great bridge um to go from what I was previously doing and I'm still I still love talking about it um to my new my new career path where um I can just share hopefully information that's useful for everyone. So, okay. So, hopefully some of you made a list or started thinking about things that you were noticing. And if anyone's comfortable, do you want to sh like share something that you noticed? Yeah, go ahead. You can just shout it out. >> Okay. I don't know if this is because I'm 42 and also menop. >> Okay. >> Or because I'm getting older and I'm just realizing different things.

>> Okay. >> So, I was at Sam's Club the other day waiting for my food to buy my food and kids crying. >> Okay. >> Small spaces. >> Okay. >> Hot environments. Planes plain doors closing. >> Yeah. a little too many people in small spaces and not feeling the air, not feeling that. It just really bothers me. >> Okay. >> Oh, and elevators with too many people. >> Okay. I think we can relate to so many of those. Um, okay. So, this was the environment that you were at when you were in Costco. Okay. All right. Great. So, that's something that is um probably we can all relate to. Does anyone else have something they want to share about

um in this room? >> Yeah, go ahead. So there's some bright lights. >> Bright lights from the sun. Okay. >> Couple of days. >> Okay. Gosh. >> Conversations >> and you hear some conversations. >> But it's cool. Less people. >> It was just so hot. That's probably why they cranked up the AC. Now, there was a lot of people, right? So, okay. Go ahead. That was that was good. >> Yeah. I did notice that the AC is running and, you know, kind of in front of it. So, I actually It's a bit chilly in here. Me uh noticing that it's kind of it's sparsely populated. I'm the only one to let go. >> Okay. You're feeling a little exposed up

here. >> Not really. I'm just feeling like uh I don't know. Pretty average though. >> Okay. >> A little uncomfortable just cuz I've been going for the past few days straight with con as well. >> Mhm. Okay. That's good. Those are good. Anyone else want to share? No. Okay, great. So, these are really great um things to put on your list. Um things that were happening outside of the room at a different time and also today. So, those are all really great things to think about. Um, I want to ask just a few rhetorical questions for you all. Um, did anyone have a hard time thinking about things in the environment and listening to me talk about myself?

Did anyone have a hard time doing both of those things at the same time? Um, did anyone So, a few hands coming up already. Okay. Did anyone um mention something on their list that was also on your list? Did someone mention something that wasn't on your list and you were like, "Oh, I guess I hadn't thought about that or I hadn't noticed it." Um, did anyone struggle with coming up with 10 like eight or 10 things? That feel like a lot in the short amount of time. Okay, some of you are nodding. Okay, so uh that's great. Um, we're all here in the same room. You guys are really um polite audience members, right? We all

got the memo on how to be like how to follow social norms in this setting. you're quietly sitting looking at the speaker apparently paying attention. Uh and but actually um we all are experiencing different things and even though it's the same set of circumstances um all of our experiences and inner world are are different for a variety of reasons. Um a lot of those are completely out of our control and it has to do with neurological processes which um which we're going to talk about in a little bit. Uh okay. So keep this activity in your mind. Um we're going to refer back to it a couple of times throughout the talk and um it will be

good to just remember doing it. Okay. So we can just dive in. Um what is neurodeiversity? Uh neurode divergence was a term that was coined by an Australian sociologist in the late 90s. Her name was Judy Singer. Um she was talking specifically through a lens of autism. Um since then it's broadened greatly. we're talking about a lot of things now, but when she was using the term, that's where she was coming from. Um, she wanted so basically she was looking for a term in her research that would explain this idea that within this larger human genome there was a lot of diversity. Um, and that's actually to be expected. It's it's healthy. It's natural. It's really what you want. Um,

and so it was it was a phenomenon that was happening on its own and it was positive. So, um, since the '9s, a lot of other terms have popped up. Um, you may be familiar. So, neural minority, neuroatypical, neurospicy is picking up a lot of steam on social media right now. Um, I like that. I think that's my favorite label that we're giving people. Um, so essentially neurodeiversity is the idea that there's no right way for a brain to function. And it's just um so like just as biodiversity strengthens an ecosystem, neurodiversity strengthens our communities. Um so we're all unique and we exist within the concept of neurodiversity.

Um so humans like to categorize things. We're very good at categorizing people and things and ideas. And so of course that's what we've done with this idea of neurodiversity. um and you can think of it in these two large groups. So the first group would be the neuro majority. So these are individuals who have very similar neurological processes, cognitive profiles. Um they they view the world in very similar ways and and and I don't mean like identical like there are no brains that are identical, right? Everyone's brain is actually it's sort of like a fingerprint similar but everyone has their own. It's all always unique. Um the second group of people you could probably guess is

neurominority. Um so these are the individuals who have brain types that are not similar at all. So they do not have neurological processes that are similar. There is a vast array of cognitive profiles and they view the world vastly different in very very unique ways. Um and later on the next slide we're going to talk about characteristics that are similar but even within those subcategories um it's vastly different. So um some of those differences include attention, communication, social skills, sensory experiences and information processing. Um, and I just want to say that this idea can be somewhat controversial. And if I said this in a clinical psychology conference, I would be like kind of afraid. But, um, I'm just letting you

know that these are this is just information in in conversations that's happening. Um, and it's I'm not assigning any moral value or or any of that. I'm just saying like here's the information and this is what people are talking about. Okay. Okay. So, we can um focus in on that second group of people. So, the individuals who have differences in neurological processes and perceptions of the world. So, of course, this is not an exhaustive list. Um there's a lot of other groups of people that could fit under this larger umbrella, but you might um you might recognize some of those things. So, ADD, ADHD, um PTSD, what's some others? Autism, you might know about that one. um OCD,

um bipolar, down syndrome. So this is like a huge group of people, right, that are very vast in characteristics. Um uh so these are the this this is how we've like subcategorized these individuals in the second group. Um so if you're comfortable another opportunity for audience participation if you yourself or someone in your family so we can say like um I don't know spouses or partners children brothers and sisters mom and dad aunts and uncles okay like within your that like realm of family tree if if there's someone in your family or yourself who has been diagnosed officially by a physician not like we think he's probably on the spectrum it's like officially diagnosed. Um, go ahead and

raise your hand. Okay, so that's quite a few uh people in this very small group of individuals. Um, and go ahead and raise your hand if of those of the things you see on this underneath this umbrella if the diagnosis you're specifically thinking of is ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, or autism. Okay, that's still a lot of people. Um, thank you for participating by the way. Um, so I just want to take a second right now to identify that this is actually a very personal and nuanced conversation. And today due to the format of the talk, I'm going to be talking in generalities, but the intention is not to make anyone feel dismissed or unheard or like I'm

just giving like five easy steps to like fix your problems and it's so simple and why can't you figure it out? Like it's nothing like that. Um, I realized that this is a very um giant conversation. This is meant to just be a jumping off point for a much larger um you know idea. So um I also want to recognize that lots of people in this room raise their hands. Um so this is actually like I don't know let's just recognize the humanity in this topic. It can feel a little dry in a conference talk but it's actually something that we're experiencing as individuals or our loved ones are experiencing and sometimes it can be really challenging or maybe even

painful experience. So, um I just I just hope that everyone can be very thoughtful and kind in your comments and I'm I'm sure you will be. But, um I just wanted to take a moment to really think about that and and really appreciate that. It's something that we're we're we're sort of all in this together. So, I think it's worth it to think about that and pause on that. Um so, there are people in this room who've experienced neurodiversity or have loved ones who experienced that. Um so let's just talk about how prevalent this actually is in our society. So right now most research is suggesting that 15 to 20% of the population um identifies as neurodeiverse. So that's a

lot. That's like one in seven people. That's quite a bit. Um Gen Z makes up about 30% of the workforce and about half of them identify as neurodeiverse and 80% of those individuals expect companies to recognize and support neurodiversity. So, this is something that's going to continue to expand and become um a larger topic and conversation. It's not going to go away. Um and it's something that, you know, I mean, I think supporting all people in your workplace is actually the right thing to do. That's my opinion. But it's also um best practice if you want to continue recruiting the top talent, if you want to be retaining individuals, if you want to have new ideas and innovation and

creativity in your company and be at the top of the game. Um this really is the way forward. Um so making you know your company neuroincclusive really matters. Um, so neural inclusion is just the idea that everyone is included when you're developing policies and workflows. Um, it's really not the best practice to just put something together and then add on um, accommodations as people are asking or complaining or struggling. It's better to build it from the ground up with neuroincclusion and everyone in mind. So, um that means like from hiring and on boarding all the way through um ongoing workplace accommodations and um other programs that you might have for employee retention and success. So, if you're thinking, well, we don't

have any neuroincclusion because no one said anything and I don't know, our team seems to be doing well. Uh well, we just said that like one in seven people are neurodeiverse. So statistically speaking, unless you have like two people on your team, probably someone there could benefit because they are neurodiverse, but more than that, everyone um could could benefit from support. So not just people who um are asking for help. Um so we can just look more at the benefits of having neuroincclusion and making this a priority in your company or on your team. So right now the research is suggesting that um neurodiversity on your team is incredibly beneficial. Um there are three main categories at least that I

found when I was reading through some articles. Um so the first would be innovation and creativity. This is a huge benefit. Um I think it's particularly beneficial for the tech and cyber community in general. Um so that would be like enhanced problem solving and unique information processing. Uh another category that I identified was productivity and efficiency. Um so this could include things like excelling at detailed oriented tasks, pattern recognition, high levels of focus and extraordinary abilities to retain information. Um and finally, with the right supports in place, um there is a much higher level of employee loyalty and retention. Um which of course, who wouldn't, you know, who wouldn't want that? If you're going to spend all the time and money

like training someone, you want them to stick around for a while and feel supported and excel. Um so these are some benefits. Um so if these are the benefits, what are some challenges that we might face? So some common struggles. um when I Okay, let's think back on our list of environmental input that we all did. So, we're all here having we presume a similar, you know, experience, but we identified that maybe that's not the case actually. Um and this might be the case of for someone in your workplace. It appears that they're doing well, but maybe not. So there's um a lot of research out there suggesting that for example individuals with autism um

specifically have a very difficult time filtering out environmental stimula. Um this is due to neurological processes. It's not like they're choosing choosing it. So um I had a client once who described this. So this was a a young professional. He was like early 20s. He was working in a building downtown and he described this problem as um there were two radio stations playing all the time for him. So one radio station and by the way they're like full blast like going really loud and he couldn't filter out one from the other. So the first one is his supervisor telling him important information like deadlines, instructions expectations feedback all the stuff that he's like, I need to

know it because this is how I'm going to excel at my job. Um, but then the other radio station was playing all this random ambient noise like the clicking in the vents and people walking down the hall and someone's at the water cooler and that like bubble things are so loud or his lights were buzzing and just all this stuff and he was like, "Man, it's so hard to on purpose filter out that stuff like don't think about it and focus on the stuff that matters." And he said like when I do this all day long, I come home and I'm so tired. I just I'm so drained and I just eat dinner and go

to bed and my life sucks right now. I I cannot move on like this can't be the rest of my life. I got to come up with something. So, this is such a significant thing and it and it's it's very important. Um even if it seems like you might be in the same office and like I don't know, it doesn't seem loud to me. Well, it might be loud to someone else and and both of those things can be true. Um, another thing that I really love talking about is um, unspoken norms in general. I love this topic. When I was a psychologist and I u, I spent a lot of time teaching social skills to

individuals and it was it was a challenge because it's so contextual. It changes. Nobody really talks about it. You kind of just have to know. But, um, like how do you know? Like how do you know? So, I mentioned before you guys are all very polite audience members. you you got the memo on the social norms, no one's talking, no one's standing up randomly, all the things. Um, but like how do you know that? Maybe because like throughout school people told you to like sit down and look at your teacher. Maybe you've had like direct instructions through your life, but no one told you before you came in this room today, remember to stay in your seat and don't talk to your

neighbor. Don't look at your phone. Like everyone is picking up on that on their own. Um, but no one talked about it. So there's a lot of things that go on like that that we just don't talk about, but everyone expects it to just happen. And I also think it's so interesting, this like a side maybe like a rant a little bit, but I think it's so interesting that um so many people are so judgmental of others who maybe are not picking up those social cues when it's my experience that most adults are not nailing it every time. Like every one of us has had a social interaction that didn't go as well as we wanted. it was

awkward. You didn't know what to say. Maybe you said the wrong thing. Whatever. Like, no one's getting it 100% of the time. Um, but it I hear so often all this judgment of others who are who are really struggling with this. So, this is a topic that you catch me in the halls. I'll tell you about it. I love it. Um, very cool. Um, another thing would be executive functioning. So, this could be um uh things like time management, focus there's a little lag on my computer here. Um emotional regulation and time blindness. Um for those of you who are not aware of what time blindness is, it's that lack of internal time awareness. So, you might be a person who

sees a task and you think, "Okay, this is going to take like 30 minutes maximum, so I'm going to do it for lunch." But then like two hours later you're in the thick of it. You're halfway done. It's going to take way longer than 30 minutes. Um another way this might um present itself is you feel like you've been working on something for 10 minutes but you look at the clock and actually like 6 hours have passed and you're just like wait a minute it's dark outside. What happened? So, uh this is just like a lack of time awareness um that happens for some um on their own without like external supports in place. Okay. So, I'm going to with all this in

mind, I want to share a little personal story with you. Um okay, so these are my kids. They're cute, right? They're also really awesome. Um and they were just born like that, by the way. I didn't It's nothing to do with anything. They just came awesome. um very funny and I asked them if it was okay if I shared this story about our family and shared their pictures and they said it was okay. So um this picture is a couple years old but um basically what was happening was in this on this year my little girl in the pink jacket she's my littlest one she started her full day preschool program and so for the first time all

the kids in our house were at school all day and so I worked from home and it was incredible. It was very quiet. Everything was tidy. My coffee was hot when I was drinking it. Um, everything just sort of clicked clicked along the way I wanted it. Super in control of everything. And then at 4:00, um, the kids came home and it was like immediate mass chaos in our house. And there was like stuff everywhere. There were books and jackets and and like socks and shoes and just everything everywhere immediately. This is something I know about myself that really stresses me out. it's overwhelming. Um, all the clutter everywhere just I don't like it. Um, another thing is that they would

come home and they were really excited and they wanted to tell me about their day or what they did or an upcoming thing or you're never going to guess what happened or whatever and I wanted to be there and listen to them, but they were talking over each other and it was really hard for me to manage like okay wait I'll talk to you in a second let's do this one first. So, it was it was just a lot. And then, um, uh, at the same time, I just had a lot of other stuff going on, like trying to get homework going and dinner at some point going and all of it. So, all of it

together was just sort of like a perfect storm. And the hours between 4 and six at our house was every man for himself. It was horrible. And it went on for a couple of months. I thought it was going to get better with time, but it didn't. And um so some of you are sitting there thinking about this and like okay yeah this this is very similar to what happened in our house $4 to6 house was pretty hectic too. Yeah this is like exactly what happened. Someone someone else might be thinking like okay I mean it's not that dramatic right? It's not that bad. Um like just clean up the shoes. It's so you know why can't you

handle that? Or someone might be saying like this is why I don't have kids because it's I just don't want that on purpose for myself. So um and I just want to point out that all those experiences are um valid and true and important and my experience doesn't invalidate yours and vice versa. We can be sitting with the same set of circumstances and experiencing very different things. So these are the things that set me off but other people maybe they don't for you. Um and that's okay. So what ended up happening was um I thought back this is a true story. I thought back on this day a lot of like what happened I just snapped a little bit. Um I just

had a mental breakdown a little bit and I think what happened was I turned the fan on above the oven. You know what I'm talking about? Like that fan that like sucks the steam out when you're cooking and it just was like a sensory nightmare and I was like that's this is I can't do this. It's too much. And um the kids I remember the look on their face of like whoa she's totally lost it. Like it's happened. today is the day that she's totally insane. Um, and I felt out of control. Dinner got ruined. Everything was a mess. I think we ordered pizza that night. Um, and so that night when everyone went to bed, I thought, "Okay,

this can't be my life. Um, I can't do this for the next 10 years. I got to make some changes." So, I came up with a with a chart for myself um that identified some of the challenges and some of the needs that I was things that were missing and then like pretty simple solutions, right? Turns out it's not really a rocket science. So okay so the first thing is that was challenging for me is everyone talking at once that the need that I had was I needed more cognitive space and I needed turn taking. So um we had a family meeting and we I set some expectations and routines and we talked about everyone

can't talk at once that's too much for me. So we made a plan and the kids were super into it. They wanted to do it. Uh the other thing was environmental overwhelm. So, there was too much stuff all over the house all at once. And that's a huge trigger for me. So, I created a space for them to put all their stuff. I mean, what I realized is that they weren't hanging their coats up because they couldn't reach the closet thing, like the little rod in the closet. They're too short. So, I just like put up a hook and then they were so excited to have their own space. And so, very simple um a very simple solution

there. And then the the last thing that made a huge difference for me was that I the I was managing all the tasks at the same time in like a short period of time and it ended up being too much for me. So I needed to reduce some overload and I needed to create a sequence for myself. So that's what I did. I made a schedule. Um I prayed ahead of time and I gave the kids some jobs to do so they could help out with some of the chaos. And it turns out it really worked out very well. It was super um it was also really adjustable. So this is a couple years old now. they're a little bit

older and they can do things more independently. Um, but we've been able to adjust this chart and like have updated family meetings and talk about it. So, um, so this is a chart that I've used also with some clients um, where we identify challenge needed solutions. So, let's see what's happening. Okay, so these are some challenges that are maybe a little more relevant for our purposes today. So, first is um, office noises. I think this is one that comes up quite a bit. Maybe this is the one that we've seen on social media or something. Um, so I think I the ident the need that I've identified is that it's often control over a sensory environment. So

noise cancelling headphones, quiet spaces that are available to everyone by the way. Um, not just someone who's disclosed or someone who's asked for supports. Um, every person could could really benefit from these solutions. um uncomfortable work wear or dress code that's uncomfortable. This is a sensory comfort and bodily autonomy need. Um there's something called proprioceptive senses and it can be very disruptive if you're a person who can't filter that out. Um so maybe just consider more address like um inclusive dress policies. Um task switching burnout predictability is the need. Um shared calendars block time. You guys are understanding. Um maybe there you have a team member who is having a difficult time with verbal feedback. Um it might

be that they need more time to process or they just need um more clarity of expectations. So written feedback would be a very simple solution there. Um this is not obviously the only solution to these these challenges. There's a lot of things. So you could just like tailor this to whatever is happening in your particular team. Um and finally emotional regulation. So space for regulation recovery. um is is the need that I that I identified. And then wellness rooms could allow breaks without scrutiny and avoid tone policing. Um okay. So I thought we could do this. It's like a pretty small crowd. If I don't know if you guys are into it. I made some slides with just like some

more ideas here that we could work through. But does anyone want to try to fill out this chart like right now? I'll just like shout out some ideas like if there's someone who's ch having a hard time with social norms like what does anyone have an idea of what the need could be? >> Yeah, go ahead. >> So over the years I've gotten a little bit afraid of small spaces and going into airplanes specifically. So when I go into an airplane I have my essential oils. I make sure that I'm not easy and there's so many noises and people. Uh once I get to the door of the airplane, I do this on the cross because

I grew up in Peru. And then after that, I add I go to talk to the uh main flight attendant >> and I say, "Look, I'm usually fine, but if something happens, could you please check on, you know, because they're prepared for this." >> So then that gives me peace. >> Yeah. Yeah, I just came back from Peru when I flew to Atlanta. That was 7 hours and I like what am I going to do if something happened 7 hours in Atlanta, you know? >> Yeah. >> So, I try not to go down the deep end and try try to prepare. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So, um maybe having some preparations ahead of time would be

really good. Having that also like a safe person. >> A safe person is very important because it's a airplane full of strangers in the small space. >> That's right. Yeah. So, social norms really um sometimes can take a backseat if you're scared enough, right? Um Okay, great. Does anyone else want to share need and solution? You don't have to. Yeah, go ahead. >> Um in in certain places that I've worked where I feel like I'm not navigating social norms really well, um I've kind of leaned on someone that I trust that I feel like kind of like the office really well. >> Um, and then just like >> trying to have like open dialogue and

like this is what I'm struggling with. >> Um, and then I do like a lot of like mirroring in, >> you know, like meetings or in situations where I'm a little >> unsure. Um, and then just kind of, you know, creating like an open space um with someone you trust kind of like opens the doors and like being able to like ask a question that you wouldn't really know how to ask. >> Yeah, that's helpful. >> I like that. I I like that both of you mentioned like having safe people that you could like say like, "Hey, listen. Struggling. Could you help me a little bit?" Um, that's really great. I love those ideas. Awesome. Anyone else feel

the need to share? >> Yeah, go ahead. approximately just mentioned it within my head at the same time. There's a need to feel safe >> and there's a need to understand >> what the norms are. I don't know what solutions per >> Yeah. Yeah. So he said there's a need to really feel safe and to uh you know really feel like there's there's a solution available that would be available to you. Okay. All right. This is great. Um, I I've filled this out. So, all of your ideas are rights, but this is just what I filled out ahead of time. So, um, I just wrote explicit expectations and social transparency. Um, so how could you create that? Maybe,

um, you could make norms apparent during an onboarding. Um, you could create social scripts. You could use neuroincclusive neural mentors. Um, and this kind of goes back to that safe person that so many of you mentioned. Um, sometimes this is a resource that's not always available, like if you have sort of a smaller team or a smaller budget or something, but um, if you could just have a friend maybe in your office or something. I really like that you guys brought that up. Um, okay. Uh, and as I said, this is obviously not the only thing. It could be tailored to your specific circumstance. Um, okay. Well, thank you for coming again. I just again, as I said in the

beginning, one of my things that I really wanted to Okay, one of these things, sorry. Okay, so one of the goals that I really had in mind was uh for everyone to have one small step they could they could um take towards inclusion. Um, sometimes there's a mis there's a like um there's a uh what what word am I thinking of? Like a misunderstanding that in order to do something neuroincclusive that it has to be like huge and enormous change and like weeks of planning and like a huge, you know, financial investment. But it really doesn't have to be that. It can just be one small thing and then over time all those small things add up. Um,

okay. Well, if any of you would like to have um like talk about some things that are coming up for you or anything on your team, I'm happy to help out in any way that I can. Um, so thanks for coming and it looks like we'll have plenty of time for questions if anyone has any.

>> Oh yeah, go ahead. I I wanted to ask um I've not I've been noticing things like I've been going to events in Chicago and I you know I if there's too many people in the elevator I will take one by myself. I was thinking how can I work in Chicago if what if I work in a high up you know floor and I cannot open the window all those things and I'm like then I went and looked at the uh you know like the law what does the law company accommodate. So, I've been thinking about that, you know, but I I will wait until I get an offer and then talk about it with one person, you know, because I

want a big life. I don't want these I thought they were fears, you know. I I was saying I don't want these fears to hold my life back, you know. >> Sure. >> So, I don't know if you have any advice or anything that I can, you know, practically do besides what I'm already doing. I mean, I would love to hear what other people think, but my initial thought is like I think you're probably on the right track of doing everything a person could do is um trying to maybe selfaccommodate or ask for accommodations during the hiring process. Maybe you could look at companies that specifically are neuroincclusion friendly. Maybe they already have some solutions for you

worked in that you hadn't thought about. Um, does anyone else have any ideas that came to mind? Okay. All right. >> Yeah. Any other questions? >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> I was interest I'm I'm Gen X. >> Nice to meet you. >> Interested in the stats about Gen Z. >> Oh, you said Gen X. I thought you said I thought you said your name. I was like, hello. Okay, go ahead. Sorry. >> Okay. Um the stats about Gen Z is that is that due to greater self-awareness by diagnosis? >> Uh that's such a great question. There are so many thoughts on this um topic. Um I don't know that that there's like a consensus that's been landed on for for

this answer, but some are saying like more um thorough evaluations, more like social acceptance, um more understanding of neurode divergence and um maybe a little less stigma. So it's okay to say this and like get help and recognize and go to the doctor and all that. Um uh it's it's difficult. I hadn't I haven't heard of anyone really landing on a specific like this is why. So there's a lot of ideas out there. >> Yeah. Anyone else? >> Yeah. Go ahead. >> How do you what are your opinions on dealing with this from the other side of it? The manager's perspective being completely inclusive and wanting to do this for people but not letting people

incorrectly take advantage of it. Somebody that just says, "I just want to work from home. I just want to wear jeans to work. Um well, I would say that um if if there's an employee that you feel is struggling and maybe taking advantage of something, um you could think about is this environment the most supportive it could be. Um sometimes, uh this is such a great question because this comes up so often from individuals who are managing teams and trying to like look at budgets and see like what are we doing here? Um, I guess as a neuroincclusion person, like thinking about promoting this, I I think that it is beneficial for everyone on the team to have some

flexibility. So, if there's a person that wants to wear jeans to work, I mean, does that affect their performance? Does it really make a difference? Maybe if you have like a client coming to the office, then okay, everyone can have like an uncomfortable day. or um if they can work from home or have a flexible schedule, does that affect the performance? And if not, maybe that could be something you really look into if it really doesn't it really doesn't hurt anything. Um if a person is is um if their performance isn't, you know, what you would hope, then that's maybe a different conversation where you could say, "Here are some supports we're putting in place, but

here is the performance, you know, goals that we have and we want to just make sure that we're aligning here." That's what I would say. Anyone else? >> Go ahead, Willa. just how we measure people that probably needs to change >> because our measurements have to apply to everyone. They're not necessarily based on accommodations. So if we change the way we measure and we focus in on performance versus, you know, folks are taking advantage of accommodations, then I think we have a better, more equitable system. >> I like that. For some managers, especially if you've been working hybrid or on site or, you know, through co and had to shift back to an office, it can

be diffult difficult to change your measurements right? >> You measure people differently based on how you work. >> Absolutely. Yeah, of course. I hope I answer your question well. Any Yes, go ahead. I'm just going to say that the examples given be curious and ask why if I because like if I go to my manager with a with a question like that I probably got a a darn good reason for asking >> like ask you're saying you're if you go to your manager with a question asking for help or accommodation >> like that yeah there's probably a reason why >> and how do you ask why confrontation. >> You know, so many people come with this

and I think it's a really valid fear. I mean, unfortunately, we still live in a in a society where there is a certain amount of stigma. And I also think the individual who is experiencing neurode divergence or struggling in some way might think like if I ask for something, they're going to think I'm I'm taking advantage. I'm like kind of a pain in the butt and no one wants to help me. And then what if I lose my job? Like it could really spiral. So um um I'm sorry your qu could you repeat your question one more time like what >> it's it was more of a comment how >> I guess you as a manager you want you

want to understand why the question is being >> sure how how to get that information >> absolutely you know when I've talked to people who um who are diagnosed with with autism that's really primarily who I've worked with, they they often do not disclose um because of all the things that we just talked about that there's like a significant risk for things not going well. Um and so then you have my client who who gave that example of two radio stations and he just was like, "Oh my goodness, what am I going to do?" Um I I also think that a lot of people just don't know. They they don't have a diagnosis. They don't they never have

been evaluated. they're just like, I think I'm just dumb or something. Like, they just think that something's wrong with them. Uh, but when actually it could be something that's like out of their hands and with like very um doable things could have a huge outcome for them. So, uh that's a complicated that's complicated. I can appreciate that. Anyone else? Okay. All right. Thanks you guys. Thanks for coming. [Applause]