Framework to RE Job Search by Kirsten Renner

All right, I'm going to start with two confessions. Number one, there's someone that was going to be a surprise guest and they're on a slide and I don't see their face. So, we're gonna we're going to wing it. We're gonna see what unless unless he shows up. Um, and I made you guys these amazing brochures and left them at home. So, if you grab a card on your way out uh or connect me on LinkedIn, I will get them to you electronically and I'll make sure that I post uh all of this content as well as the brochures for you. So, let's jump right in. Um really the way this this uh all this content came about was um last year I

spoke in uh at Defcon and afterwards I was doing like a recap with my husband on how do you think that went and I and I get his feedback and I take notes and this was born this whole idea uh because I kept thinking you know if people would just apply the same type of problemolving and and engineering uh techniques to their career search, they could get there faster. So, that's how this all came about. I'm looking for my guest. He's not coming. All right. So, who am I? You heard a little bit about it already. Uh I do run um or direct the hiring village for Besides Charm and Higher Ground. Uh these things were bequeathed to me by

Kathleen Smith. if you've she's uh my guide and mentor in in all of this volunteering. Um the first time she ever uh recruited me into volunteering and speaking, it was to to sit on a panel. And I remember I remember remember being terrified. And the reason why stories like this are good is because I'm going to be encouraging you all to do these sorts of things. I'm going to be encouraging you to take these types of actions. And if you're thinking, I would never, I could never, um, the way that she framed it was, you're going to sit here and have a conversation with me, and there's nobody really in the room or just interact with them, talk to them

because I like talking to people. Just you you you turn into something else when you're you're an audience, right? So, I just I just want you to feel comfortable every step of the way as we go through this. So, if you're reverse engineering something, then you're going to start where? At the finish line, obviously, right? Because you're going to be running backwards. So, as you can see, I'm uh I'm quite the graphics artist. Uh use a lot I use use a lot of paintbrush. I forgot to put the timer on, so I have no idea where we are. Um, so where wherever you want to be, there's many different places in your career journey. You might want to be just breaking in

for the first time. You might be trying to advance into something new. You might be trying to pivot into a different area. You might be trying to grow and advance where you are. You might want to start your own business. There's a million different things that you might want to do at different stages of your career. And in these different stages of your career, different things are going to matter to you, right? Uh it might be all about the money at some point. Money is never going to not be important, right? I literally have taken significant pay cuts to advance in other ways, in other areas throughout the journey. Um so I I can tell you that uh

I did the math one day. I love uh trying to put the math on things. Um, not only have I interviewed tens of thousands of people, I've been that's just aging myself, but I've seen uh thousands of trajectories, right? Different people at different stages trying to to to break into a different area. So, this is where my kind of point of view is. So, one thing I want to say, keep in mind that when I wrote this, I was writing it for the last. So I was writing it last fall and at that time I was doing a project where I was I was like I've always had this idea in my head that whether it's for political

reasons or corporate reasons there's always I believe and I think I have proven um an inflated view of how many jobs are out there. So I'm always hearing that there's half a million cyber jobs out there but there isn't right. So um some colleagues and I were also talking about and and we were talking about um across the different industries whether it's medical or uh govk where I am or manufacturing transportation uh industrial controls different things um there's there's different points of view in these different areas and um still every time you see a job posted out there I believe it's It's about a safe to say a 10x uh inflation on what's out there. But I've done experiments and and

we can do experiments together where you everybody whip out your phone and and look for a specific job title and I can prove that it's 10 or 15 or 20 companies all posting the same jobs. So if we just talk about government security for a second or the government space, there's always a prime. And this may very well be the same. Nod your head if you're not in government and it's the same where you are. There's there's a prime and then there's subs. There's multiple, right? Okay. So, there's there's vendors and there's agencies and there's staffing firms and they're all posting the same job. So, I say this kind of to encourage you if you're just applying

into black holes all the time, one of the one of the biggest weaknesses or areas of concern um is your application's never even going to get seen, right? You're just putting it in a black hole. Um, so just I say that to encourage you that there's not as many jobs out there as they say there are. And fast forward to where we are today compared to when I wrote this, there's a lot less jobs. So I'm also not going to reference uh the points of data where I came up with what I'm about to tell you because I don't want to upset anyone or get in trouble. Um, but I can tell you that I did some math on some uh sources

of information for openings available and there and I found a 70% not joking and that's not even like an exaggeration reduction in the number of openings that were available from these points of view. So it's like I went to people that had access to openings and different portals and things where they were trying to staff on them or submit to them and it was reduced by 70%. Okay. So there's just less out there. So it just makes it all the more critical for you to be strategic about how you're Yes. >> I don't mean should we say questions till the end? I we'll see if it gets out of control, but in the meantime, >> you think the main reason for that is

when I go apply for one of these jobs that there's been layoffs at Meta, Google, and Amazon all at the same time that I'm looking and there's a bigger pool of applicants that already have the experience that I don't have quite yet. >> I love that you asked that question. It's almost like I planted you here because because I didn't, but I love that you asked that question. And if you didn't hear her question, uh, it was be is it potentially because of of of the of all of the layoffs that you see on the news happening. And by the way, u the last thing I heard on Bloomberg a week ago was that there were still a

100,000 jobs open. Come on. Right. Right. So, uh, but to answer your question um I can tell you and I also I'm not going to tell you the exact source because I don't want somebody to sue me or whatever, but that there are internal recruiting teams at large companies, right? I can't say the company names. Other people can if they want to, but colleagues that I know, uh, a they have cut all the recruiting teams drastically. Get on LinkedIn. You see so many recruiters looking for a job right now, right? You see everybody changing their status to I'm looking. I'm looking. I'm looking. It's a lot of recruiting people looking for jobs right now. Also, the

recruiters that are lucky enough to keep their jobs are having to refocus. They're not allowed to look outside anymore. I'm not saying this is across the board, but there are instances where they have to be restaffing their internal resources, right? Because if the company lost a contract, lost a bunch of contracts, they had they have a choice to make at that point. put all their humans on a bench and continue to pay them and lose money or lay them off and you see the layoffs happening. So just keep in mind that the people who didn't get cut are sitting on a bench right now hoping their company can find work for them, right? So that's part of

the impact as well. That's a very good question. All right. Since I'm actually not an engineer, I don't know what that is. Um, but I but I Googled reverse engineering graphics and um and okay so but but seriously I if you're doing you know think about it like doing a a network scan uh if you don't understand the design of the map components you have you hit a firewall you're trying to that's what you guys are doing you're looking for you're trying to exploit a way in right you're trying you're looking for for your way in also Look at my graphic skills. Um, so, so climb is is about choosing, learning, interacting. And you'll notice that when

I was uh, uh, consulting chat GPT on on on what word to use for I, uh, I found a couple other ones and I'm going to and I'm going to have fun with that later. Um, mobilize and become. So, in just like a network, we're going to figure out um you know what how what can you participate in? And and and right now you guys are already doing step one. You're already doing it. You're already networking. I want you to look around the room. I want you to I challenge you to get to know one or two of the humans around you today before you leave. Right? Introduce yourself. You're you're all of the people sitting around you

right now are they're part of they are your resources. They really are. They're tools for you as well. So, I'm not going to drain slides. You should never do a word heavy slide in a presentation. The only reason I did this is so you can use it as a resource when we post it later. Okay. So, haven't done it in a while, but I I do run ultramarathons or I I have run ultramarathons. Um it's if you don't know, it's anything longer than a marathon and starts at about 50k. Uh, but when I'm doing it, uh, when you're doing it, it sucks, right? Pretty much the whole time. Um, it it's just it's kind of it sucks until until the end

when you're I did it. Um, and so a technique that an Army Ranger friend of mine told me when I was out there about it in my first one, he said, just pick a spot that you can see as far out as you can see. whatever it is. It could be a a lamp post or a tree or a rock or whatever and just run for it. Um, and it's just kind of a a technique that I'm using to en encourage you're all in the race too right now. So, hopefully it's going to be a 5K for you and not an ultra. Um, but I I tell you that it can be really exhausting if you haven't

defined your spot, right? if I was just out there um and and the first one I that I'm referring to is a JFK50. Not only do you hallucinate PS um at some point when you're out there um but if you're not running towards something right you can literally just just head off in the wrong direction and make the journey a lot longer than it had to be. Okay. So the learning phase that I want to talk to you about. So obviously step one was choosing. just pick your title, right? Um I should have talked about a little bit more and not about running. So I want to do that. So you're going to pick your your title and then you're

going to decide who's who's who's hiring for these roles, which companies. So just focus on one title for now and you can find different iterations of it later. Which companies are doing this? Um what can I learn about that company? And we'll talk about that too. Guys, this is Osent, right? There is every bit of information you need about the types of people that work at those companies, what those companies really do. Nothing against marketing. I sort of do marketing. Uh but but companies taglines tell you what they want you to know, right? But what what you really want to know is where's that company going? What's that company doing? Who's growing inside the company?

You can just use, and LinkedIn doesn't pay me to say this, but you can just use LinkedIn as a resource. When you go inside of those companies, there's tabs at the top of all of your search results that say, "Do you want to learn about the company? Do you want to look at the social posts? Do you want to learn about the people?" And if you go inside those people's profiles, not only are you going to see, did they advance while they were still there, or did they have to hop around to a million different companies to get where they wanted to be. So this is all information being revealed to you by what those people are

saying. Also, where are the are those people going to events? Are those companies here? What are they doing that is interesting to you that is relevant to you? Uh that will help you once you get there. So remember when you're doing like a a requirements a gathering and analysis project for looking across vendors to pick a product or trying to create a solution for your customer. Then you're going to talk to all the stakeholders and you say what's most important to you. Oh, you care about this aspect. You care about this aspect. You care about this aspect. I'm going to want you to do that for yourself. Think of yourself as your client. You're your own best advocate.

and and start ranking the things that are important to you. Do they go to conferences? Do they provide training? Do I see people advancing inside the company? A lot of smaller companies might be able to offer you things that that bigger companies can't from certain aspects with growth trajec trajectory uh and availability. But then also a lot of the larger organizations, they might have a heck of a lot more resources, you know, to send you places as well. So this is Kadu scanning the landscape, mapping out the components. Look at the recruiters, look at the hiring managers. I wonder what kind of applicant tracking system they're using. Do you want to know why that matters to you? Every time

you see the job posting, if you look in the URL, it reveals to you what that is. It tells you it it literally tells you, is it a custommade one? Is it theirs? Or does it say greenhouse? Or does it say workday? And the reason why some of those things matter is because the they're they're very different from each other how they work. Those applicant tracking systems you need to have. And the brochures that I created for you that I left at my house um that that I will provide for you will show you the different versions of your resume that you need to have, right? Because there's one that I'm going to hand to you that's

going to be very interesting and easy to read that will compel you to keep reading. And then there's the one that can be digested by the applicant tracking system and not automatically disqualify you. Recently uh was working on a project where um how do I say this? There was different sources bringing talent resources to the project, right? So outside sources and inside. And it's the way that those things worked. If you're adjudicating all the different like say remember I said uh staffing agencies and and and your partners and your subs and your internal team are all looking at the same pools of people obviously and you have to adjudicate with timestamps um who gets ownership of the of the resumes that are

coming in and there someone set up a nifty rule inside of the requisitions that that uh wasn't very well written and it said something to them. I'm just I'm going to make up the what I'm trying to say here. It'll be like only if they eat apples. Only if they eat apples, okay? Not if they eat oranges or if they're love to eat fruit or if they're really health conscious, they're healthy. None of that. And so and and turns out I really could have anybody that ate any kind of fruit or frankly that ate even if they ate vegetables they were qualified for the job. And since that rule was set up everyone was automatically disqualified

by the applicant tracking system. So yay AI right? So there's these there's this always most résumés suck. Most job descriptions are subpar at best. So in between that you have to have a recruiter as a conduit closing the gap in between those two things that are not great. And when you use these new fangled tools that are automatically you know oh yay technology um setting up rules like my little Apple thing um unfortunately that those orange eaters all got screwed right and frankly I'll reveal it. So did I because it was my team, not my current team that did that. Um, so that happened. Um, so I'm going to want you to be going out there looking

at the jobs that are posted uh in the experiment I think that I have on the next slide. I updated them last night. uh was saying uh searching for just not not because I want the job director of recruiting and as an experiment and then look at the results look at who's doing it and then let's find out more about about the companies and the people. So it was a real quick search director of recruiting and I I decided it was okay to not pull the uh the company names off because these are public job postings. They'll be fine. Um, and I wanted to show you, remember we was talking about those tabs if you dig deeper, and I'm not going to

spend like this whole presentation running you through these. You guys can do this yourself, but go inside of all of those tabs. Look at the people, look at the posts, especially look at the posts, right? Because they're going to be talking about where they're going and what they're doing. And then when you go inside of those people's posts, you're going to see what they're doing, too, right? But as an experiment, like if you went to if you go to my LinkedIn today, you look at the company and then you're going to see, oh look, look, she's at Bides today. That's cool. And let me just run down her activities. She goes to a whole bunch of conferences. So if

that's your jam, cool. Maybe I want to work at that company where they send people to a bunch of places. Um, so that's a real easy, you know, experiment for you guys to do. And I hope that um that you'll do that. I still don't see my special guest. That's okay. he's still going to become part of the presentation. Um, if if at any time any of this e if I if I talked over it too fast or you do have a question, please feel free to like the beautiful sparkly red shirt lady. You can What's your name? >> Kristen. >> Like Kristen. Do you ever get called Kirsten? >> Christ with an A. That's how you spell

it. >> Okay. >> Or CJ, that's your >> I sometimes get called Kristen. Uh so interacting can be uh really the most important um aspect of this. This is how you're going to not just apply. So uh recently um a colleague of mine said, "I've been looking for over a year. I've been applying. I never hear back. Um you know what what can I do different?" And we were and I was coaching the person through send direct messages and please please please I use chat GPT. Okay. I use a a slightly safer version of it. But but I I love I I love it. But if you don't if you aren't creative and thoughtful about your

prompt, it's going to look very produced by. Right. it's gonna look it's not going to look I know that you didn't write that and if you don't prove it well right? So use it because it's an amazing tool and it gets to know you and it starts to sound like you and it starts to crack the same kind of jokes you crack and it it's cool. Um but be thoughtful about your prompts and be very careful with um making sure that that you're proofing it because it's going to make really logical mistakes. um that that are gonna it's gonna make you just look lazy, right? Um so use chat GPT because it's cool. Um but be be

careful with what you do. Uh when I went and when the messages are too long and when they obviously have the same icons or little check boxes and that check chat GPT always uses, I'm like, you didn't even take a minute, right, to to to send me a note. So, capture the flags. Um, responding to calls for papers, mentoring, volunteering. I still don't see him. Um, um, I some of the some of the job last three or four jobs that I actually have came through just interacting at conferences. Uh, I met the CEO of three companies ago just at a pool at Blacket. Um, so it was like the first day when your timing is off, you know, it's like,

let's just go to the pool. Um, so you're going to gain opportunities with what you guys are doing right here today. Um, please, I I I assigned you the homework. Get to know each other as well. Um, I am going to I am going to tell you a story and it started right here at at Besides Tampa um 2020. It was right before when they first started talking about there's some kind of a virus going on and you might get sick. And I remember thinking, should we where do you get a mask? Is it is it going to be okay? And besides Tampa 2020, if you guys remember, it was like it was like the end of conferences. Like we were

fine. No, not none of us got sick and then everything shut down right after that. It was uh it was February. Um so make sure that your your direct messages are are targeted. uh micro engagements beat cold applications every time. Where I say to check your LinkedIn profile, use others to help you with this too. Ask other people to show you what it looks like. So the person I was talking about that has keeps applying and had never hears anything back. I said, "Can you hand me your phone?" And looked at the phone and we looked at his settings and then because he said, "I have it open." I'm sorry. This is that's my boy voice. I have it open to

recruiters can see that I'm looking and I'm like that's not what I see when I look at your profile. So check your settings. Turns out that I can't remember exactly what the settings were, but it was s everything was hidden. Like nobody could see anything. I couldn't see anything he had ever done. Nothing. And um so he changed his settings and his engagement went up 500%. in seven days. He got a recruiter call the next day and he has a a face tof face interview next week for the exact job he's been looking for for a year. That just happened. I mean, you can see that's May 13th. That just happened. So, so definitely look at your settings, see

what it looks like. Um, some I don't know if you have to be premium for this to work. I'm sorry. I don't know. Test it out. But you can make it so that it will show you what your what it looks like. But even if you can't, just ask one of your friends or colleagues or your mom or somebody to look at it for you. Um, but your settings matter as well. So again, I think I've covered it to death. Don't just apply. I did a little experiment the other day and I whipped out my phone and I was like, I'm going to put my timer on. I'm gonna run through my DMs and and I almost took a

screenshot of my inbox to show you guys and then I felt like it was it was it was so much work redacting everybody's faces and I didn't want to upset anyone or embarrass them. However, at when I did the experiment, there was 256 unread messages that day um from candidates and people reaching out. Okay. Um, and so I said, "Okay, I'm gonna do my best to look at 10 of them, to really, really look at 10 of them." And I put my timer on to see how long does it take me based on what the person said to me to figure out how to help them. Cuz does the information you gave me about yourself tell me everything I need to

know to know to compel me to do the next thing or not? um it took an average of seven minutes per human which is not horrible but if you're if I 10 humans that's 70 minutes so that means I would have to take an hour and 10 minutes every 10 people how many hours in the day right and I say that just so that I could give you a real world example of how you can um help me help you so don't just say I'm interested in your opening that's my sorry voice um I'm interested in your opening Which one? Help me. Help you. The the more information you give me very quickly, it's on the brochure that you can't see.

Um, and you've got three to five seconds. I have three to five seconds, by the way, to get your attention. And same in reverse. That's it. To to make me keep looking, right? Um, quick pointer. I think I'm only down to like three minutes. Very quickly. Oh, I'm a this and I want to be a that. I've had candidates get mad and go, "Well, can't you tell from my resume?" Nope. How could I tell from your resume if it doesn't tell me? Should I assume that since you're this, you want to keep being of that or you want to go to the next level? Right? So, just really quick me, tell me I'm a systems engineer. I

want to be a solutions architect. I am a dental assistant and I want to work at the front desk. Whatever, right? Help me help you to make it clear. Uh say this is specifically the job posting I saw that I'm interested in or the multiple jobs that I potentially am a fit for. I'd love to discuss it with you. And after you apply, after you apply, look at who recruits there or who works probably in the in the area where you want to work so that you can say shoot them a quick note. Hi, I applied to this. Is there anything else that you're looking for? Let me know if you have any questions. Do something like that. All

good recruiters have their DMs open. I used to have my Twitter DMs open. I know it's not Twitter anymore, but um sadly that has uh turned into that used to be where I did all my recruiting back in the day. All right. Um I I I you can uh use this as a resource, too. I these are really from my inbox, and this is what they should have said. So, I didn't I pulled those right out of my inbox. Um because if it's all it says is take a look at my resume, what do I have to then do? I have to open it. I have to look at it. I have to look at your

profile. And I will post these guys uh on my on my LinkedIn too for you. Um so just just please do do thoughtful messaging and make it as concise as you can. And this is also a good way to utilize potentially chat GPT and say here's exactly what I want them to get out of this message. here's all the words and all the feelings and all the results I'm looking for. Give it to me in one sentence or give it to me in two and it will do that for you, which is pretty cool. Um, so yes, attendance matters. You're all here. Um, this is where you're learning. This is where you're connecting. I encourage you to

volunteer uh whenever you get a chance. man. I once volunteered at Bides San Francisco and my job was to man the stairwell because it was necessary, right? So, I don't know what kind of job they're going to give you, but you're needed in these places. These are all nonprofits and and they all need help. So, I encourage you to do that. Um, and I already told you this is how I got my last several jobs is is through conferences and networking. Um, this is my story. He's not here. Uh, it was going to be I don't see him. Once upon a time, I was at Besides Tampa and I was speaking and uh one of the

speaker volunteers um came up to I was uh I was at the bar with um who was I with with Alyssa Miller and we were were talking about the talks that we were about to do and he came over and he said, "You know, I I got your uh you know, I'm really excited about this and and um I was supposed to show you his There he is. Um, he now is a founder of his own company. He's a successful consultant. He's amazing. He was a college student at the time. Uh, I think right either either here either UCF or USF here. um he was c he was a student here and um he was part of the white hackers club

and uh and some one of his mentors just told him to come over and what I'm telling you is what I was then going to do is have him come up and tell you how doing what I'm encouraging you to do. Uh I can't say his own story for him but I guess I don't have enough time anyway. Any point is he's awesome. Connect to Kenneth. Um but but it was just a real world example of how uh this can can help you as well. So um we talked about don't just apply and sending also a cover note. Make it as concise as possible as well. Um these can be messages. Um these can be you

know your summary will be the beginning of the message to compel the recruiter. I keep using the word compel, but you know what I think I as PTSD um years ago, probably probably close to 20 years ago, I remember I reached out to a recruiter on LinkedIn and her full response to me was not compelling enough. And I was like, damn, I wonder if she remembers that. I wonder if she's going to see this and remember that. You hurt my feelings. Um I never forgot. Um but she was right. That's probably why I never forgot. I was like, she I mean, she's probably thinking the same thing I'm thinking now. Like, did that wasn't enough. That

wasn't enough for me to even I think I was asking her to introduce me to somebody. I thought that was clever. I was like, "Oh, they I'm trying to recruit this person and she knows the person." She was like, "No, I need more. I need more for you." Um, another important thing that I hope I don't uh uh lose lose sight of uh making sure that you understand as you start interacting, be inquisitive. Come in with prepared with all the questions that you're looking for, right? Um and and at the end, by the way, when you get to the interview stage, whether it's with the recruiter or not, they always close with, "Do you have any questions

for us?" Yes. Yes, you do. And then you're going to turn that person into a human for a second. They're not going to be an interviewer anymore. What you're going to ask them is, "When did you join? Why did you join? How do you like it here?" Make them into a person for a second. Because humans are naturally self-interested anyway. So, they'll they'll put the recruiter hat back on or their interviewer hat back on at some point. But at first, when you look right at them and say, "Um, you know, my son plays soccer twice a week. Um, do do you have to accommodate anything like that in your schedule? And uh do they let

you? Is that cool? Do and have you learned anything? Best question. Never forget that question. What have you learned lately? What what did you learn here? Right. This is going to be one of the most revealing things that that happens in in your in your experience, I believe. So, this is the part where we get to the finish line. Um, I I create Chad GPT actually did help me create this little formula here. I was trying to get I was trying to get mathy because we have a science theme going on. Um, but I hope that I hope this was helpful. I will uh if I have how many minutes? Couple. Okay. Uh, I do want to invite you to ask

questions if you have any. And here's my bonus tips. And the last thing I'm gonna say, and I will make all these available to you. There's my partner in crime, Kathleen. I never would have been ever to any besides if it wasn't for her. And uh I said uh I said I read to her what I was going to say here today. And I said uh give me a quote. And she said uh time, patience, experience, and love. So I think I had one person over here first and then and I'll go one, two, three. Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Uh so whenever you're creating your resume, a lot of people say to put a

cover letter with it as well. As a recruiter, what would you look for in the aspect of like a cover letter? What really stands out to employers? >> So the question is about um and what stands out and and how to construct your cover letter. So it's a it's a multi-part answer. Uh it's going to depend on if this is via email, if this is, you know, you're applying um because you're not always going to have the opportunity to do it, which is why sometimes that might be the follow-up message that you send, that sort of becomes your cover letter, right? Like back back in the olden days before you were born, we had to mail our out

and we in this a thing called an envelope with a stamp. Yeah. But we had to really write cover letters. You don't. Um, but you're going to start with that compelling, I'm a this, I want to be a that line, right, to get me going. And then you're going to send I think a follow-up letter or a follow-up note is the new cover letter these days. I think you have you have you you have a recruiter face or a hiring manager face. Do you agree with that? I'm Yeah, I'm interest. >> Yeah. Okay. You have a recruiter face. So, what I'm interested I'm >> Don't know her. don't know her name. Um what uh what is your opinion on cover

letters? I'm interested. >> Um they do help. Um but um it the the whole thing of having a recruiter is so important because that's the introduction and we'll actually tell people to okay this is a great resume but >> yeah she's saying that that that that relationship that fi find some people find find your best I think one of my little uh resources up there said find your find your person uh find your champions right Kathleen was my champion Find people uh in the recruiting space, find hiring managers, find find people. Um that's going to be that's going to be as important, right? If not the most important part. Somebody Yes. >> So, one question is the value of an

internal referral. >> Yes. >> If you're targeting a sub, you know, a a small group companies. And then uh should you have them submit your resume your your application or through the you know so the order of that to make the the most use of it. And this and the last question is is is uh premium worth uh paying for on LinkedIn if you're actively looking for a job. >> I think yes to I think yes to premium. They don't pay they don't pay me to say that. But the the but the human that I showed you with the 500% um uh we we we bumped them up to premium too. >> Not not necessarily right at that time.

Um but yeah, premium's worth it. I think I hate to tell you. You know what you can do? Um you can do the trial. You can start off with the trial and just make sure you keep track of whether or not it made a difference to you to your to people reaching out to you. and then you can cut it off if it didn't work out for you that remember if you go back to the part where I was saying who works there who do I know there should try through that relationship to get referred referrals get looked at before applications referrals get looked at before applications every time and don't apply if you also got referred

just don't not until they ask you to they have you have to apply to get an offer so at some point in the you'll they'll ask you to apply, but have the referral put you in there first because remember when I was talking about adjudicating timestamps and all that crap. Um, just just go just follow it in that order. So, yes, find somebody you know there to refer you. Yes. >> Just have a really quick success story. Yes. >> Yes. >> Sure. So, just really quick, I'm not a speaker or anything like that, but but to along the lines of exactly what you said on LinkedIn, three days ago, I've been wanting to work for Oracle for a

really long time. I used to work with them a million years ago when cell phones didn't exist. And so I'm like, I really want to work for art. I signed up to be in their pool of applicants. But also, there's a little check box that says, do you want to get our newsletter? Yes, please. In the newsletter, there was a shout out for this guy who's an executive vice president who handles many, many things. All of the things that I'm interested in maybe him being my boss at some point. So I reached out to him on LinkedIn. I'm like, "Hey, read your newsletter. how you came from, you know, 0 to a,000% working for Oracle,

his career and all. The takeaways I got were 1 2 3 would love to connect professionally if you're open. The next day he friended me. I didn't expect it. I wasn't, you know, thinking that would happen, but he did. Now I have an open communication with him to ask him anything I want. He's given me permission and he probably isn't expecting me to do anything with that, but I'm very scrappy, so I'm going to. But I'm just saying these these little nuggets are like gold like the golden goose. anyone we still use that reference the golden goose like the golden egg for those of you that don't know what that is um there's these little nuggets are these scrappy things

you can do to just kind of get one one step closer one step closer to this dream company if you want to work for meta you know just friend these people on the internet ask them questions like you're absolutely right I just wanted to share that like that just happened two days ago and I got the friend request I'm like I telling my guy who's a speaker besides I'm like I don't know if this guy's going to friend me hold on a minute oh my gosh he did he goes congrats virtual high five you know so just The proof is in the pudding, right? So, just wanted to share. >> Yep. And so, if if you couldn't hear

because if the in the recording later, this is that that was that was a success story of uh of networking and how it helped. I'm going to go here first. Blue shirt. >> Um to add on to the story, this may be a question, >> but do you beat that person up like that? Like you keep constantly like howing them or what is the cut off >> on the follow-ups? >> On the follow-ups. Yeah. What is the cut off? Uh, so the question is how much is too much with the follow-ups? >> Exactly. >> Right. How much is too much? Um, you seem like a friendly person. You seem like a person who wouldn't reach

out to me and say, "Hey, thanks for hosting that village, but your volunteers gave me bad advice. Would you mind looking at my resume?" And then send me a message once a week. Um, that's too much. So just just be just be uh just be thoughtful about it. Um I will say one of the things as a recruiter when I was act recruiter uh one of the things that I I one of my biggest weaknesses was not getting back to people that I intended to get back to. I mark my messages as unread like it's going to work and then I have thousands of unread messages. I can't be trusted. You have to send me a note. And I've

been very thankful when people reminded me. And sometimes the worst thing that I will do to you or that a good recruiter that doesn't just ran out of time will do to you is just introduce you to somebody else. So maybe your follow-up could be uh while I understand you're very busy and I appreciate that. Is there someone else on your team or in your network that you could refer me to that has more time? Ask Chat GBT to make it nicer than that, but you know what I'm saying. Um sometimes that's the right route but um what's too much every every two weeks is healthy. >> Yes. >> So uh what's the as a recruiter what's

the uh expiration date of my friend who might have been out of work? Uh like when when do you need to get a new job? How soon? I'm not I don't understand why. >> So you uh so if you've been out of work for a while and then you as a recruiter you get this resume or an application and you see ah this person he hasn't worked for a year and a half two years. When do you start saying uh well I think I put that person away for now. >> So the mic probably heard it because he's right next to the camera. The question is, uh, is there a period of time that a person's been out of work

that's so long that I that that we're no longer interested in talking to you based on that? Do find something else to fill that space, right? So that you so that it does so you're not showing a big blank of nothing, right? Try to do volunteering. Try to uh do your own consulting thing. Try um try to fill that space with something meaningful. Um so that it so that it's not completely blank. I know that's rough, right? It's hard. Um but see what you can do as a volunteer. take on potentially, this is going to sound a little bit scary and and I'm happy to talk about it more later, but um to do something that isn't

ideal, to do something that isn't your target to fill the space, right? Um so you might have to go work on the help desk while you're looking for your director job, right? You just might have to. Um but try to fill try to fill the space. There isn't ne there isn't an expiration. I I I don't think there's it's not a hard fast cut off, right? I don't think. But that's a good question. So, do I have time for any >> one more question? >> One more. Yes. >> Um two-part question. First one's really short though. For the follow-up DMs, about how many sentences are you looking for? >> Two. >> Okay, perfect. Uh the second half of

that is when you've worked for smaller corporations or smaller companies and you go to build your resume, the job title that you may have been given by smaller companies does not really reflect the scope of the work that you've done. What leeway do you have when building your resume kind of you know where I'm going with this? >> I do. >> Yes, >> I do. Um some of that might have to come out in a conversation, right? And some of it it's going to depend uh the one of the people that I used as example earlier is for sure the CTO at the company where they work because there isn't a CTO and they're doing all those

things among other things but the the title is different. Uh I said put acting CTO. Um so f if the you have to be careful what the company's going to think of it, right? Um, but you can describe that you were doing the duties of that is more reflective of what you've actually did. Does that does that make sense? So the question is really about what you can use as your title. Uh, but you can use words that say I I did this function. I was I was doing these things. Yes. I I'll do one more. It's not a question. Just following up. Sure. I think it works well for um job titles that are

antiquated. >> See, I had a 20-year corporate career and my title >> back in the early 2000s does no, it doesn't make sense to any recruiter today. >> Yeah. >> You have to change it to something that's more acceptable. >> That makes sense, too. And and and good recruiters and sometimes the bar is low in this industry, but uh like you're awesome. Yeah. The bar was low. um uh they're going to understand that, right? And they're also going to understand that different company sizes, like a VP over here is just a staff manager over here depending on the size of the company. So, that's also a really good point. I think I'm just about over,

but again, um grab a card, connect on LinkedIn. I will get those brochures out there and I'll put all this content right there.