Imposter Syndrome in Cybersecurity: Strategies for Combat and Growth

[Music] all right what time I go two well welcome everybody thanks for thanks for coming today uh come on in I'm I'm completely fine with a patch of space uh B Valley is probably not fine it's probably like a fire hazard but we just won't say anything uh yeah so a couple two or three months ago I was I was I saw on LinkedIn James says hey we need we need some speakers for B bides I had done bides as a speaker last year and I I had a blast doing it so I thought you know what this year I'm gonna do it again and have have fun and so it's a little easier okay doing it

doing it for a second time in a row uh then when I went immed syndrome and I went to read the the blur that I apparently had written myself and it wrote about how I was going to make it all light-hearted and stuff and I was like oh my goodness here I'm gonna talk with this heavy heavy subject matter and now I got to make this thing light-hearted uh and so that did that did wonders for my impostor syndrome having to think about do something somewhat comical for for the talk uh but today I want to to talk about something that's really important something that I personally I actually struggle with imposter syndrome okay I

don't I don't talk about it a ton with people and I think honestly that might actually be a part of sort of the challenge about why imposter syndrome sort of exists and it keeps on keeps on rolling um but I want to also start off with a little bit saying by myself that I do work at state I'm an instructor at State uh but what I'm going to be doing talking about today I see a lot of faces that are familiar that I recognize um in industry and students existing and previous previous semesters uh what my my talk is St would be completely fine with me saying all the things I'm gonna say but I do want

to make sure that you know that everything that I'm going to give you is is my opinion okay and it's coming from my my uh my so the topic that we're going to talk about is what is this what is this thing that we keep sort of hearing about and then some strategies that I've I've put in place in my own life to to combat it what is oh there's animation that's a happy accident uh what is imposter syndrome okay before we get too much into it I do want to say as well I I'm not going to give you any Stats today I stats are good and they're important for knowing things but what I want to

tell you is really more from a personal side so what is my experience with it what's my story me how impact the people around me how have I seen it impact other people um in Industry because I I hear it every once in a while so the way that I Define imposter syndrome is this this this feeling of inadequacy or you're put into a position where you sort of you're like I don't think I belong here or I'm not I'm not good enough to be where I am and that really really defin I would put um imposter syndrome for myself I don't know if I don't know if that resonates with with anybody else here

but that's that's really that's really the the vibe that we get from it so like I said I'm going to connect this to my story and talk a bit about where the where are the moments in my career where I've more most experienced this feeling of imposter syndrome so I got the logo up there um when I started at se I've been at se for about six years and when I was a student there and I had awesome instructors they they really inspired me and encouraged me to go off and learn about it every single instructor had they were they were they were older they had wizard beards uh they could look at a machine and they would immediately be

fixed and as a younger a younger person and think oh my goodness you're you're amazing how did you how do you do with this do this stuff um and so I I of what to be an instructor with me as I went and graduated and I got jobs in it as I got jobs in security type roles and then it got to a point where I had an opportunity to apply to work as an instructor at State and I was like oh my goodness oh my goodness people that I had not idolized but had held in in high esteem and I I I went for it I interview got hired and now I've been there for six years but in

my first year it was rough uh and I didn't really have anybody to I was feeling because how I was feeling was a a strong feeling of impostor syndrome because remember I said I had this idea that you had to have been in industry for multiple multiple multiple years in order to have knowledge in order to relay that knowledge towards people that you that also want to know something and then to have a group of people that are looking at you and saying you know something I'm thinking oh man if only you knew that I just reviewed this topic for the first time like two weeks case anymore I students uh

but somebody gave me some some really really great advice that really my my trajectory at State how I was going to treat my time with students and with colleagues and being in industry and it's going to be actually one of the five slides one of the five uh tips that we're going to have here I only have about 20 slides so why why my goal here this is what I do this is why I do class I sort of jump around a little bit um I'm going to give about half an hour 35 40 minute talk and then leave time for questions because I find the engagement piece and then I two years ago I started

this stupid thing red blue Labs uh and yeah plug and oh my goodness talk about imposter syndrome trying to navigate that dog pile of Randomness and trying to be just another voice in the in the the mix of people that exist on YouTube looking at Big players like John Hammond or uh bumball and looking at the the quality of their videos and then looking at mine and comparing myself to them completely oblivious to the fact that I I had at that point had never done it before I had never really edited videos before never got my face online in fact it took me like a year of doing YouTube stuff to even be remotely okay with my face

showing up online it was like it was a it was a a very big emotional internal battle to be to be okay with that which I'm kind of okay with now you know I said kind of kind of okay um if you ever see the videos you'll see that it's only area of my room because all the other areas like boxes and and a bunch of garbage which reveals too much about me as a person I don't need that online uh but in my in my in my career I've had two moments of some some big um impostor syndrome in infused moments um and I'm every once in a while you know I get a new course that has content that's

tough and they say hey Andrew in what a week you're teaching it I'm like all right let's let's rock um or you I'll be looking at comments and I'll the noob you suck I hate your videos that has a if you don't if you don't have some things in place um toxic very toxic environment uh for the most part everything's pretty pretty positive around YouTube coms you never read the comments that's how you get engagement that's a bit of my but now the question is is this prevalent in cyber security I'll I'll pull the room what do you think yes or no yes yes and not as many for the no I'm GNA assume what is

what is What is PR question is imposter syndrome yeah okay so I got an answer I got an answer no I uh I miss uh okay so I I was thinking like what kind of answer for this one I'll start with no why is it not I think that it honestly exists in every industry no matter what field you find yourself in there's going to be a moment where you have this this feeling of like I don't think I here and you can't even sit in your own your own skin um so it has it has to exist I mean we're not the only industry but then yes because I exist I exist in this

cybercity bubble and so the only Viewpoint that I have is of things relevant to this field and what it touches and so yes and no right but the real the real key to take away from it is what does how does imposter syndrome impact you in the space that you currently are okay so before I get to the items that are that we can use to combat imposter syndrome I'd like to talk a little bit about what have we done to actually sort of create an environment that Fosters and not pain pointing fingers that's why I did the the group group symbol I'm going to show you a Meme here and I pulled it before I get there I

pulled it from LinkedIn like four days ago and I don't know if you know this but LinkedIn is the place where memes go to die yeah oh that's that's earlier they're born on foran their early infancy is Reddit then the later life is Facebook and then if you ever if you see a meme that's and you're like oh my goodness uh Anakin meme one more time I'm out of here I am sick of that Meme by the way um it was funny at first okay so I apologize it's a gr it's a bit of a growth image all right from Star Wars right no it's from Harry Potter okay now I don't I don't I'm not going to go into

depth what the scene's about but um it's a later movie and it's I'm I'm going to pull it apart it has some funny aspects to it but what I want to actually point out is how things like this can actually Foster a a negative Environ General we got a we got a this Voldemort but he's a creature that's looking pretty rough Harry he says what happened him and then um uh Dumbledore thank you um he he tried to get into cyber security without exper experience so yeah on the on the surface it's funny but what is it for me it it frustrates me because what is it saying about our industry and that it is if you

don't if you don't have any experience you can't get in this field if you if you don't belong you just don't you don't fit into this space right this is too hard for you right I'll see questions to the end that's all right um I don't think that's right I don't think it's like yeah there's some humor there but I it it creates this this air that I don't know it just doesn't sit right I got one more Meme here and beginner hackers aric cix right it it's funny right I I chuckled at first and then this was actually four days ago as well um pull from the same thumb flip on LinkedIn um but let's let's take yeah I

agree is funny but let's pull let's pull ourselves back a little bit and look at what is it what is kind of like this comedy this meme seeing and what is it how is it potentially impacting our our space so we've got a we've got a person they've installed C Linux and they're they're assuming that just because they've installed C links now they're a hacker okay and why aren't you doing anything so it's it's portraying uh new people to the realm of cyber security as lazy uh doesn't want to work hard um etc etc feed onto that thesaurus of of uh negativity and yeah it we see if you're on LinkedIn at all you see this pop up every once in

a while right what I'm trying to say is that the things that we put out there to the public does actually have an impact and it creates an environment that may be hostile to people that want to be in cyber security which can have a impact on what people feel about themselves imposter syndrome right one here Chris you gave me this slide um gross so I can hear people I can hear the murmuring so it's a security certification road map well I was glad to get this because it would put a lot of good perspective into the Cs but dear goodness this thing is overwhel right as a as a new person to cyber security you're think well what do

I need to do to get into this field people say well you need to get your shs right that's great or you could attempt to do one of these one of these things go go down go down that path and I am overwhelmed when I see that um having this as big as it is and as daunting as it is you might not agree with my opinion on this and that's fine but it kind of creates sort of this environment where as a cyber security person you're like maybe I don't belong in this because I don't have t or I've been in cyber for five years and I don't have Tu right or I've been in 10 years and I

don't have all these shirts or people are people are getting new ones all the time and it feel like there's new CS being invented every day as well and that's just my personal feeling um but it does feel like that okay I have two more things that we we ourselves do that sort of foster post syndrome LinkedIn I personally like it for for some things okay if you follow me on LinkedIn you'll see that I post red blue Labs things because that's myself trying to Market my my brand um use it for communication with network networking like business networking that's what it's for that's what it was supposed to be for okay but it also

turns into this pool this this city there's this this temptation and I I have fallen prey to this temptation I've done it where you post this thing look at this sht I got look got a job happy when people our moments and I'll be honest where somebody SPS I got this and I'm like ah shoot I don't have that sir what's wrong with me right that's that's the Imposter syndrome poking his head this is the place where my impostor syndromes like stabs me right in the side and makes me feel inadequate that feeling that I've put on because really I should be I should be should be feeling proud and happy for people that are getting SS

and pushing themselves into this this world that I really really like I love and my hope is be in there for for a long time uh God willing um let's go to the next slide how's my Pace am I going too fast okay okay here here's the thing what here that kind of makes me curious about there is nothing else worth trying bug Bounty and P there's nothing else worth doing in cyber security sort of like uh from L media and not so much from like my if I over talk to any of you some firewall work I do lots of I I do lots of ips keep naming things but that's how much money I did making bug

bounties like I wish I had would solve a lot of problems or I enjoy doing hacky hacks man I wish I could be a I could pentesting on on and mad M on YouTube so a part think is an issue and you don't have to accept this even believe me that it's a challenge but I

right talking about firewall rules is not a sexy topic um but talking about making $100,000 doing bug Bounty man that's some that's some good clicks on a on a video right I'll just put it out there so you won't see any videos from me look how much money I made doing bug Bounty because I find it a little obnoxious and I mean those videos they are entertaining uh okay so also I've learned that PowerPoint has this like AI feature that like makes slides for you it's wonderful oh my goodness I couldn't have designed this this is not my specialty yeah how of I personally believe that it's it's an issue all of us myself included have

contributed it unintentionally um the first tip though is earlier where I had an had a a senior person at C pull me aside and give me this piece of advice and it was studying okay but it really makes sense so if I I'm faced with a a networking class that's i' say that's kind of like my that's my jam I love love doing and firewalls and prevention section I love that jazz but if there's an area that you feel weak in study area and get your knowledge to be stronger so that when you do show up to the class you can speak with confidence because you understand the subject matter so my first year I spent and my

wife could attest to this that spent quite a bit of hours reading textbooks over and over again practicing my my lectures before the class um if there was a new a new subject matter coming up the next semester I would I would work like three months in advance so that I could have confidence in whatever subject matter was I was was expected of me okay and that made a huge difference but I also quickly learned that this on its own can't we can't cut in it's not it's not enough okay because impostor Syndrome has a curious way of of finding its way in there How does studying change how you feel bad about yourself when you see a colleague get

aert that you didn't know they were studying for they can't so it can't be the this can't be the only thing that we have as our our tool set to combat imposter syndrome and another slide I forgot was animation on but I'm really excited about it um I really enjoed Michael's talk uh this morning because you had mentioned syndrome um and that you and you struggle with it yeah and I've said now that I struggle with it and maybe we should be more open about talking about it with with our colleagues and with with others because it makes it it makes it normalizes it a bit to be like yeah I struggle it sucks um so I put in friends it's a very

general uh term but Michael had also said something later on in his presentation about reaching out to somebody that makes a huge difference being uh siloing yourself into this this bubble that you've made yourself where you don't feel like you belong or you're inadequate in some some fashion it can't help by being all by yourself s so do don't necessarily need be need to be colleagues I mean that can help if you've got some like healthy relationships with colleagues and be like you know I am I'm struggling um and being honest and say I I'm having a hard time with this and this and I saw that I saw that that post on LinkedIn I I have

I have people in my life that I can go to and I have some friends at Sate and I can say the this sentence I I saw this post at on LinkedIn about this former student that got aert and I feel like crap and I I have asked I said can I have a hug and it might sound silly but honestly goodness having having like a hug from a friend that you trust can make a world of a difference I'm not telling you go and hug people but I like hugs once in a while you know they're nice um but reach out don't be don't be a don't be a solo person no we I don't

believe that we were uh made to be lone wolves I believe that we are actually social creatures that really benefit from from being around each other so studying friends and the next one is Faith so now three months ago when I was asked or I I said to uh besides I said I want to do imposter syndrome this is the slide that I struggled with okay because it's a very personal slide and I did tell you that I'm G to talk personally I'm to preach at you but the I struggled with this slide because I don't feel like you can talk about ways to combat imposter syndrome without talking about a topic like this okay and so when I refer to

Faith I believe in myself because it's it's maybe that's not enough okay I I'm not going to spend a crazy amount of time on the slide um but there are there are a lot of religions on our planet all right and there all we can find Solace and uh peace in that religion and so why not use our faith to help us with this feeling of inadequacy okay so for for me uh I said it was personal for me uh a main tenant of my faith is that I don't what I do as a job doesn't matter and what I do and how much money I make as a person comes from who I what who I

belong with in God that's my that's the main part of my faith all right so for whatever that is and however that resonates with you let that let that be a part a part of it for you but all of us number four so studying friends faith and then face your demons so face of demons it's kind of an adage that we we use like face that things that scares you and it really is actually what I'm trying to get across here so for me a technique that I use to combat my imposter syndrome is that I intentionally take on that thing that scares me and I just I try to wrestle it to the ground so one a thing that scared

me uh at first was talking in front of crowds so being being in many people looking at you um that was on um last year I did bsides I was terrified I don't I don't know if people saw my talk out last year but I my heart was racing the entire time I was I was panicked all the way before I was scared how can I have enough information to provide people that have been in this industry for 15 20 30 years I'm just Andrew right the Imposter syndrome saying that I don't have contribute to this wonderful field okay so F your demons another another demon that I I faced was was doing was doing

YouTube so I was scared face online I pushed through it I got got through it um I I was aware that eventually I would get hate hate online so I had to emotionally resolve the fact that somebody's gonna hate this thing as the subs grow eventually somebody's gonna have a differing opinion right and say and then make that make it known to you unfortunately um but this is something that you can do in your your career as well I I talk I talk with students all the time I really enjoy it I love I love having conversations with uh current students and uh people that have graduated and a and a recurring conversation that I have is along the

lines of like I don't feel like I belong I don't I don't feel like I belong in this field and I say yeah you do you just got you gota you gotta take the risk you gota you got to go out there and take a take a take a risk to make the make your goal happen okay one thing that I I used to do was if I wanted to work I wanted to work in cyber security okay but it didn't just happen I had to make my opportunities occur and so what did I do I re I looked up companies that I wanted to found found key key people in that bited them out for coffee

without the expectation of them giving me a job and my goal through that was to make my face known so that if I ever put a resume in that stack of 300 resumés that my name would stand above the rest and it worked um I end for for um an intellectual property audit was amazing I was I was just a young that I jumped on and it was because I went out for coffee and the person hiring they knew my they knew my name um so I encourage you to do that as well think about what your goal is and then what can you intentionally do to to get there because goals don't don't have a tendency to just occur

naturally okay unless you're lucky and then this one this one might seem self-explanatory a good way to impost syndrome is like time okay beginning I syndrome but now year I'm able to know what my topic is for the day and then go in and then talk two and a half hours or networking scanning or intrusion detection because I've I've got the the knowledge from studying I've got the time of being able this practice for a period of time um and even even going to I'm not going to say my videos are amazing but if you look at first first ones oh they're a little rough uh and I think at least I'm telling myself this

which helps with that I I believe that I'm improving that what I'm trying to accomplish U this is fun no hey what happened AI you suck anyways uh so did say was half an hour 35 minutes look at that I almost hit a pause for 30 235 but I almost hit exactly um you're curious I do talks a bit about another my next venture into being imposter syndrome and combating something which is making my own business doing pent tests and uh security vulnerability assessments uh security security awareness training so this is my attempt to myself okay and then if you're curious don't have to but there's a YouTube channel and with that I'd love to open

up the floor to questions and if but if you want to go grab a coffee I won't be offended by um you're going to do that go for it um if you are a sa graduate

um okay uh you'll be next what value does Sate grad so this is me talking about Sate so I know whereare that bo bo

Valley ah okay so those those five things so there is there's some things that you can go into and this this actually apply to all people that learn security uh but you you went through a program that was strenuous and taught you a lot of things there's the studying uh you've You' have actually this is one of the things I really loved about my time at state was that I left with a strong group of friends that friend that I said I could ask for a hug that was somebody I graduated from say and I can I can have a I can phone open I feel like crap today man um uh friends um you spent if you went through school you

did do time so you went from knowing potentially not much about the field to getting into two years and then you you you exit with not 30 years of experience but you do you have exited with two years of hands-on experience so that actually is a tremendous amount of value you can go to an in U an employer and be like hey look at all the things that I I did while I was at school uh one thing I would encourage is to build up your own home lab more and more I'm seeing managers hiring managers talk about the value of Home Labs uh because it is actually a practical way to demonstrate I for one if I was going to

do interviewing let ask a ask a grad hey what do you what do you do in your your spare time and if they said man I love here I'm gonna tell you about all these this complicated home L home lab that I've set up and they can rattle off bits about bits about the thing that they're excited about man that speaks is me personally uh that speaks volumes more than getting a Security Plus again that's my my opinion on that does that answer a little bit yes yeah okay also knowing that you have value tell yourself I'm an unimportant person go for it so I've noticed on my time in LinkedIn like ever since I

graduated I've spent a lot of time on the platform and trying to like make I've noticed a lot of like postivity from the platform yeah like everyone feels the need to give their should be doing and like like what someone ought to be doing in order to like success and like how how do

you yeah keep going like how do how do you kind of distill what is most important out of what everyone says because they're getting a bunch of different opinions and yeah you as an individual might not like like like relate or even like appreciate any like all of those opinions but you want to like take in that advice even though it's all kind of fored down the throat yeah well and first off your your feelings of that are are appropriate and the thing you just said I'm sure that many many people have thought the exact same thing one thing that I do whenever I'm going through Linkedin because I do spend a lot Fair bit of time on there for the networking

whatnot is to try to understand what people's motivation is Right are they just sharing a positive positive blurb to get that flick and get that that yeah you did it kind of thing is that is that their whole purpose did they just sort of like glean a top 10 list from somebody else's top 10 list and then repost it as look these security tools you should know these security tools if you want to be in security you want to be in security right if you don't you look you suck you're like what there's a lot of lists on LinkedIn have you noticed that um but what you have to do is one thing one one thing I

re I encourage you to do is that slide where I talked about friends so your friends are people you graduated people that you have around you but they can also be former instructors go to your go to them in in message and be like hey be honest be like hey this what do what do you think about this what should I be getting out of this go to somebody who's been more senior in in industry and ask them what their opinion is of it and I've never met somebody in in this industry that isn't open to having an honest conversation about what it's like to be in the industry so you gotta you gota you got

to think about carefully with a grain of salt LinkedIn has to be has to be taken go for it okay

so C security iiz are right and we find these days we find lots of people trying to come into cyber security from from a zero technical area you know so they never done anything it Technical and coming into C support and your topic here is talking about dealing with poster syndrome I think my opion that always it's always helpful to have some kind of technical experience doesn't necessar have to do in um you know technical support help this all those areas always help to combat impostor syndrome when one does get into cyber you know because com from no technical no technical knowled I feel there's always able to that by do you know know help this you know any of those areas

that can help you give those fundamentals that will always help to combat help you combat to we don't speak to that no and I I I completely agree if you're going from a if you have a technical experience and then switching to cyber security definitely can help combat impost syndrome I'm of the belief that all it has to be infused with cyber security I don't I don't think that I don't think that it can be considered separate from the concept because we have to build it up thinking about oh you set up router with a network you got to consider like who's going to be using that thing can it handle throughput can it handle the

firewall what's what's the Ingress egress situation GNA be like but another thing is like i' as an instructor I see a lot of people from different different walks that want to want to try and be in and want to get into cyber security and I'm I'm really jazzed I'm really jazzed by that the a thing that can help with that and I'm aware that I might be going off track so I might have to like get your question again um is that remember that slide I had with bug Bounty and pentests that's definitely definitely not the only things that cyber security has we have all kinds of spaces within this this realm that could be

non-technical roles that somebody could could fill still relevant to cyber security uh the map of what cyber security touches is actually quite large so one of the things that to we can do is to keep on encouraging each other that there is there is more than one Avenue into this space do I answer it even closely yeah just a little bit we can talk a little bit afterwards if I didn't do good enough go for

it 30 40 years in the industry you still feel imposter syndrome oh people who have five years two years industry but yet we all as he said gatekeep and say well if you don't have this experience or if you don't have that experience or if you haven't done this or if you haven't done that or if you haven't jumped through this hoop or ducked under this bridge you you you can't be in cyber security you can't be in network it but the funny thing is that I I had a meeting just a couple weeks ago with a CTO who has imposter C he's the head it guy of his company yeah is imposters yeah like it never you never

grow out of it so it's just a it's a curious dichotomy when you think we gatekeep but we also always don't feel like we have enough that's right and I honestly as I in my in my past it was stronger and as I progress it gets a little weaker but I and I used to think that I could completely get rid of imposter syndrome but the truth is I I think it's actually going to be with me for my my whole career um but what I can do is Infuse things and strategies to make sure that that doesn't detrimentally help me damage my mental health right this where we get burnout is a is a

is bad um going for uh therapy is is actually like you should do it we're like think about like a car you take you take your car in to get worked on once in a while right why don't we do that with our brains we shouldn't stigmatize it um yeah the the you even mentioned like the CTO as a lot of people would like look up oh you're you are you're the you're the chief of technology and even sort of like treating that person in that way almost forces this this feeling that they might adopt onto themselves because of it um it's a process you have to continually continually work through it and assess like why do I feel like this

right now when I'm on LinkedIn and I I see somebody get assert I'm like why do I feel like this right go for it I just had something yeah go for

it yeah totally so it's a process and it takes time but take those five things and think about how they connect connect with you if any of them resonate then it might make a make a difference go for it um what's your opinion on people Junior Cy is

interi oh what's my opinion so you're thinking of like a an entry level position that requires 3 to five years of

experience yeah I I I always have two cents uh I a whole dollar yeah I I think that's silliness honestly if you somebody has gumption that stands for a lot if somebody has grit why can't they go off and and be in that role you know people with grit that's a I love that word grit people with grit are going to take the extra time to do studying out of hours to get good at at something that's that's another reason I put out home lab because this isn't this is something you can like talk about into in an interview maybe I know I know a lot of people that have gotten into cyber security that didn't do help de

desk right I did help desk um a little bit later in my career I did it sort of like backwards um and the help desk was beneficial I did learn about client relations which is which is helpful in security because the secret about security is that it's not always computers you're actually dealing with people that for some reason keep on clicking on the thing that you told them don't click on that thing that's so true help a little bit yeah yeah okay yourself and then H well you know what you haven't had a question can I go him first I'm all for you facing your own Demus but let's say someone never really and gowork and they get that face known out

there but they think nothing comes out it and they're afraid that uh if nothing comes out of it not only would they be disappointed but they're impor syndrome would even get worse what would you say for that someone to BU their par time Ah that's a great question and it's it's a very very normal thing to feel I've I've gone to a number of networking events and left feeling like oh I don't know if I did anything good did I actually was it any value at all and you have to also know that the that you already bring value and that you are an important person not because of of uh you attending bides but it's because you are

skilled you have knowledge you you are charismatic and you have something to give to the industry you got to try to try to tell yourself that a little bit and and believe it but also here's another thing is like pick pick pick a a senior a senior person and I mean now I I might be considered a senior person I don't know I mean I have a mustache now didn't have one last year that's another career upgrade oh yeah uh but somebody that you trust that's been in industry and use use as a as a mentor that's very Val I have a I have a friend that I went to and I said I need I need mentoring and

because of that action I was actually able to combat some of my imposter syndrome as well yeah and I'm aware I'm aware of our time as well but I'm I'm happy to talk as long as they keep me in here or I I somebody marches

in yeah just the other you just

which kind of Coes we talked about they said something said the next time you experience imp post syndrome don't really offer yourself a big information that you wantong offer yourself know because I think a lot of times we kind of navigate different goals where you are successful what you're doing but every time you you can tell yourself I was successful the other one yeah there always a learning curve have it takes time and then you wrap up and the company just steps in and yeah yeah that's a good point it fits into that time looking back historically right awesome I am aware of the time so if you if you wanted to get to that last

track but if you have any questions like I'm happy to keep keep talking thank you thanks guys you've been lovely I'm here all week well that's right yeah no no no give this back to the people

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to oh Mike clerk I can speak to your your I love studying I also have like a million things that I like to study and learn so I kind of have to pick like where I want my career trajectory to go and then I will end up I will pick things intentionally so for example a while ago I wanted to learn about bug Bounty but the realm of bug Bounty is like it's absolutely massive and I don't have all the time that I could I wish that I could spare to um studying bug Bounty so I have I have to pick a little bit what do where do I want to be and what do I want to focus on and yes I

agree there is not enough hours in the day is that hopefully that answers your question [Music] Mike