Privacy Policies: The Realm of the Legible Word Salad

thank you basically here at was a short sweet hundred thirteen tears yeah I'm going to talk about privacy policies you lose a lot of things related to mobile and desktop part of history of some of the more terrible Bueller's and privacy policies over that we've seen down the years so without further ado let's get into it and basically as you'll see here there are no escapes from adverts and longer this is this is a screenshot from a Minecraft globe on tablet and they've integrated their adverts into the actual game mechanics so whereas previously you know you could block ads you could stop at popping ads with certain security tools on your phone or on your mobile

here you can see and you're about to die want to be saved by viewing an ad yes save me and it will pop and after that you can carry on playing no let me die Angie died and you don't see an advert terrible so things like this are now very very popular certainly in mobile and also increasingly on desktop games and you know what do you do about this how do you escape this because ultimately most of these games are free supposedly well they have to make money somehow and they do this by add-ons app packs and primarily advert so in terms of euler's and privacy policies what is a you low because you know you hear this

term bandied about a lot but what actually is it at the end user license agreement and it's effectively the nuts and bolts of mechanics of opting into things opting out of things the right to use copy or not these were very very popular in prominent four five six years ago if you loaded up say a video game you would always get the euro ran down your throat now it's changing a little bit because more often than not you'll see a Terms of Service and the privacy policy take precedence so the terms of services generally how you can use things and as I said it will replace the eula on the mobile if you load up a

mobile game you'll never see a EULA you learn to see a tons of service or primarily the privacy policy and so this is how you know they make use of your ppi so your pii ppi's a total sales thing involving lots of report some banks you don't want to go there and the frequently incorporate the bins of the terms of service so the reason for this is that it's very difficult more often than off for an end user or someone who feels burned by a program or an app to take legal action because of a EULA that would you answer privacy policies you know this is everyone's going to be super hot on this in terms of what they do with your data

will they don't do it when they store it what's going to happen if they lose they and you know companies are routinely dragged into court because of one key privacy policies you know euler's and things like that not so much so privacy policies are a really big deal in mobile and and but the problem is is there more often than not you'll get a yes no in the app or the program you know have you read our Terms of Service have you read our privacy policy of course you haven't and more often than not be the the privacy policy is hosted elsewhere so if you're looking you'll gather that you'll click a button and it will open up the

the privacy policy on a third party website and that's assuming the website is actually there if it's offline if they've taken it down for maintenance technically you haven't seen the thing so realistically you can't actually say yes I've read everything I want to install this game and of course a lot of these games are rained the kids are a huge chunk of games on the the play store if you know three years and all and as I'm sure somewhere intimately familiar with there's nothing better than passing the Kidder a tablet with a game on to keep them busy while you're cooking dinner or doing something important and of course then you get these these stories and the mail or

whatever were the kids then go on to buy thousands of pounds worth in downloadable content so I more often not we do miss the important stuff and we regularly just click through everything to get to the game without knowing what we're actually signing up for so with that in mind and i'll take a quick look at some of the older users out there this one's brilliant this is something called victor records victor records used to make records around 1902 to 1908 1909 a thing and on the back of our some of their red sealed records they've got this of this blurb on the back now these refugees the celtic two dollars each or I think reserve what is it twenty

dollars a dozen and they've got this ratty term on the bottom there which says a two dollars into twenty dollars per dozen when sold in lots of one dozen or more no licenses granted to use this record when sold over less price so technically these times still apply so if you if you picked up a bunch of these for free and as your soul or you pick one more a couple of pennies somewhere in theory you're you're not actually allowed to play this this piece of plastic with little bumps and grooves and if the play we really old creaky songs that probably doesn't work very well on the early LP sounds pretty interesting that's probably one of the

earliest examples of slightly weird sound effect from 04 intended consequences with the EULA that made sense at the time but very quickly now make no sense whatsoever we have a program called privacy tools in 2004 and this was one of these sorts of rogue apt plans that there are whole bunch of still see your privacy and security and safety and mauston does the opposite and these guys got so fed up with people like myself and others digging into their programs and their code and writing about them and you know judging people await is what they were up to was no good they stood listen there you learn by using this software you agree you are not the owner of affiliated with

or a member of spyware warrior Tom and you know you'll see this pop up every now and again in rogue programs they don't they don't want security researchers reversing the code nor the rest of it because you know they don't want the game to be off so that's one of the earliest examples of them that we've seen this one's quite fun in 2005 PC pit stop put this term into the you let settle that's at a special consideration which may include financial conversation will be order to a limited number of authorized licensees so basically anyone reads this and sends an email to address of PC pizza would get a thousand dollars and it's somehow talked for months for

someone to actually read the you let's see this and and then you know send them a message I think all the companies of doing similar things as well I think I think might have been a secure that did something along the same lines put like a joke claws into one of the terms of service and I think a gains company claimed ownership of your mortal soul if you installed the game so that's quite a fun one this is a Bitcoin miner forces 14 and I know you love which of course nobody reads and this installer is not approved for use and may not be used within the countries of Canada the United States Spain France England

Ireland Scotland Germany and Italy that's not very reassuring and it goes on further on down below it tells you know all the things that it will do to your PC while its mining away and as this business has a you you agree that it will use any of the resources as it sees fit it will activate all songs and generated a generative limited amount of heat and utilizing a limited amount of electricity out with and battery this may damage and cause irreparable harm to your computer no kidding and these that these are the kinds of things that people are just agreeing to Willie nearly all the time it is actually be crazy and when all else fails haven't

even gone for some script kiddie forms and download the EULA and Terms of Service generator because a lot of a lot of script kiddies will spit all these ridiculous boilerplate are you--is onto their apps so now you've got the infamous Bill Clinton internet law don't use to see em a lot of hacking websites where you know if you visit this website on the bill clinton's completely fictitious made of internet law you're not allowed to visit this webpage or user against means if you're you know more enforcement or security researcher so they will often use things like this to generate these ridiculous terms of service and in terms of the way things should work you know this is this is

generally the gateway into the all-important privacy policy on mobile in an ideal world you would get the EULA you would get some important words and then you would get a big agree yes no button on the bottom but what actually happens is you get the EULA you get some important words and then you're told to see these URLs because often these mobile apps in the mobile app developers will plant them as many advertising network and analytics funds as they possibly can all across the globe so very quickly it moves from agree to this thing by this company install the game too well okay you could agree to all these other privacy policies and terms of service and all these other things

and these are the regions people play this game so you go off and you visit URLs one and two and then you find out that they're partnering with someone else and then you told to go on visits a whole bunch of more website so now you've got you know you just wants for this one game and you have a fire privacy policies and eventually it just turns into a complete fiasco these dayz change just go on and on and don't stop and in terms of Google Play stance something like close to three million apps are early as of 2006 and December 2016 apologies a study by Jeep n which is a global privacy enforcement their work do the study on

roughly 1200 amps and they found that eighty-five percent of those apps failed in terms of telling you what they were going to do with the information that they collected where they sent it what they did rivère how they say started your privacy I think something like fifteen percent we're actually doing it correctly and further percent failed to provide any info beyond permissions at all so you would see it's quite common on google play and other app stores you will often just get a long confusing list of permissions for the game on your mobile device or your tablet and more often than not these these controls these permissions are so generically labeled but don't explain really what

the app is going to do they don't explain why a particular ones access to your photographs whether it needs and whether it doesn't whether it's actually bad weather it isn't is it going to upload them somewhere they've they never explained this which is which is crazy and in terms of the the top three games on google played in november i took a sample selection to see what the top three games were because more often or not the three games tend to be more popular than the paid ones and then they make up the cash by the the additional downloadable content v the in-app purchases and all that stores we had design home with a 2,000 word privacy

policy we had perhaps to riches with 1200 word privacy policy block hex apples all 16 is 678 rolling sky 586 and something called pineapple pen which had no privacy policy listed on google play or the developers website whatsoever off the top of my head i believe that it's a company called ketchup ketchup the palm is with or is an affiliate of Ubisoft and if you go on the website it's literally just a list of about 120 three different downloadable games as a whole it's as literally as a scroll bar of gained and there's no privacy policy listed anywhere on the website and you know I clicked into a whole bunch of the apps in this company and I

didn't see any privacy policies listed anywhere you know and it with other apps you will see whether the red boxes normally there will be a cleared for matalan to a privacy policy and then you'll click away and go read it and all the rest of it and it's always been a bit controversial is because if you if you try and find those if these apps you have a privacy policy or two about March of this year the best you could do was a Google basically service if you know the sensitive info if you're dealing with sensitive information you have to have a privacy policy but unless these companies actually tell us what they're doing with the data that they collect

unless they go beyond the bare bones these are the vehicle emissions we can't make an informed choice we have no idea what they're doing with it or why or where they're taking it or whether becomes with they're sending it to and medicinal change this year which I'll get to in a minute for this is this is how it should work on Google Play so you know you click the read more you scroll down and there will be a link to either a user agreement or privacy policy so you can see on the right there the invisible privacy policy from the last nap is no words you can click that you can go off you can read it and that's

how it should work and you know there's been so many complaints about this through google are being forced to take action so this is April again weirdly it's almost a similar amount of words across the five apps so you've got from April you've got super mario run power rangers word cookies and chicken scream no idea what ticking schemers be retained edible and again this game called wire no privacy policy listed and it's another from ketchum's so this is what google has the lots and lots and lots of complaints has started to do they announced they're going to start clamping down on apps they have no privacy policy if they feel that you are doing something the copy consider you

know personally I dental identifiable data you should have one of these there and they're going to start removing apps from the Play Store so this is one of the emails they sent oh I'll record show your your app with packaging blah blah currently violates our user data policy we need a violent privacy policy please resolve x marks the 15th or administrative action will be taken to limit the visit the of your app but there's still lots of apps out there on google play that you can find right now that don't seem to have a privacy policy listed or indeed anything else use agreements all the rest of it so it remains to be seen how hard my google play I've actually

hid these developers so in terms of the old mobile gaming value proposition this is this is Texas this is catch us on the app store for your mobile there's something like between 10 and 50 million installs of this game up to this point which is a ridiculous amount of installed again you know kid friendly so it's aged three years Naboth and of course it contains ads and in-app purchases which are getting these in-app purchases or where they make all the cash but we shouldn't ignore the advert and so that's in the day I went off and had a look to see how many ad companies you would have to read through all their privacy policies you lose and all the

rest of it able to sit down and say yep I've read all of these I know that what we're doing with my information giving some Tetris please and I was amazed to find that they had 53 separate companies listed on a big huge list of the you know the advertising companies the they effectively partner with thirty one of these had no walked out on the list it literally just said not applicable well okay does that mean because they aren't they build and they haven't bothered to do one or you know what I am I unable to actually ourselves from whatever it is that they're doing you know then the complete lack of information means I

can't make an informed decision not a judgment about what's going on there was one list that there's an uninstall which is quite weird because you know you've already installed Tetris on your mobile you you're not installing anything else so quite why one of these was listed as an uninstall with a link to an uninstaller I don't know and for privacy policies were offline or basically unreachable so either the site was down or it was a page not found or it redirected you to some holistic marketing website and so again you couldn't really work out what what they were doing with your data and until you have to read through something like eighty 3808 words across 49 policies and

a mobile you ought to be able to say yep I've read it all I'm going to play some Tetris now which ridiculous frankly seven hours 45 minutes to read at an average of three words per second that would that would take it to plan through just to be able to play some Tetris so here's a screenshot of the list of ad companies if you like so they have name of the company on the utmost last and you've got privacy policy first of all and any off that with if applicable on the the right hand column so as you can see it's quite a lot of quite a lot of texture quite all of the links quite a

lot of companies 53 of them in total so I decided to revisit the tail end of last year and see exactly how many are the one out so in 2016 you can see that it you know visually you can see that they've added quite a few more the text is smaller there's a lot more companies listed there in both columns you will notice that there is a scrollbar probably on the right of that because yep they a bit more so actually it's gone from 53 to 212 so there are now 212 companies that where you have to read a privacy policy or you know au lait or some other thing and there's there's opt outs and all the rest o just to be able

to play some Tetris and it's now divided into four separate sections so that one there with the boxer lambda is the mobile advertising section that has 75 but there's no real indicator now I looked and looked and looked I couldn't find any indicator on be the EA website the the tetris page the google play store know where that said you only have to read the the mobile chunk which is still 75 and even if you don't include the rest of them so so you know am I am I supposed to read them over ones am I supposed to read the desktop ones are they all interconnected do they do the same thing who knows well from 2012 to

2016 it's gone from one group to four separate distinct groups you've got online advertising online analytics mobile advertising and mobile analytics which is a three hundred percent increase in the number of companies listed in just four years which is which is staggering so I decided to find out exactly how many words I would have to lead through now to see you know well how many words having in terms of conditions the the technical level of the words involved because more often binoculars are written at a very high level of English and as you rub them through some of the online analyzer tools that gives you an idea of the complexity level of these bees you lose

more often than not they're there at least college level and typically a university level the pretty complex documents so here's my disclaimer before I get to the numbers because I tried to be conservative with my estimates for this because I didn't want to over blowing so keep in mind that the numbers I've got here are actually probably a bit less than the actual calibers reasons for this statistics on rulers are hard to find I was going to compare and contrast with others for these people have done in terms of how many words are involved what you've got to plan through to install an app or play a game but there really aren't any out there people have done studies on you

losing the complexity level of the words and things like that but in terms of sheer numbers shared bums on seats what am I going to have to wade through there's nothing really out there that I can find click here to see more I haven't included those because a lot of the you did the privacy policies are just you know it's a page with a bunch of texts great that's easy for me to catalog move on to the next one there's lots of a man that that again the you get to the privacy policy page and then you find out that their privacy policy is affiliated or connected to dozens of other companies at felt so then you have

all of these boxes and scroll bars and things that you have to click into and then drag over and read all that text and you've lost count with this then you get lost there or you have to click away to another bunch of sites and I didn't want to go you know I basically be there forever if I click on the privacy policy then start that chain than the daisy chain of anglers privacy policy so my rule of thumb would do is to just stick with the first page that I hate if it's a clean page of text okay great if it isn't then it's beyond the realms of my sanity and time frankly to get involved and even even that the

technical challenges of planting all the words is tricky because as I'm sure you know you can paste in a bunch of text into two different word process to word processors to getting texts counters and it will give you different results so a lot of word counter tools will will flag the first example of it as as one word some of them will flag it is as one words bill and vice versa so I went with a tool basically doesn't doesn't double the word count if you like it just if it's if it's a word that gets a hit on the decanter romantic because you can stick all of these words into different tools member with wildly wildly

different over inflated estimates and finally deciding a dead on arrival for the purposes of this I've flanked any website that gives me a 404 error consistently so I go back to the websites at least twice to make sure that they didn't just have a quick period of downtown or something if the site is basically 40 Ford and gone then it's a dla if it redirects to a horrific shrieking advertising site and I had a couple of those then that's classed as a dla okay if it just if the site is over it gives me a page not found or redirect me to their CEOs profile with a nice photograph it's at the LA frankly so

with that in mind let's move on to the horrific word salad the online advertising sets in for tetris is comprised of a hundred and twenty two different entries of those companies listed eighty three of them were working so they all 83 the one to a privacy policy of some description through the one on applicable and 37 of them were DOAs which is kind of bad really online analytics so the analytics firm yeah the advertising firms give you the adverts the analytics and number 20 adverts behind the scenes so they help the company figure out you know who's hitting the ads when were like it blokes that's effectively and I'll have the answer prizes to Dalton fine-tune the

answer they serve the time of day that they serve them the kind of demographics that they serve them through so generally you will see more enterprises with most of these programs and that you will analytics fans because it's full loaded with ads and then they've got smaller companies behind the scenes doing the number crunching so the 15 online analytics plans able working three were listed as non-applicable boomers are not available and free with do a mobile advertising 60 one of those this is pretty bad as the 61 only 14 worked 23 were not applicable there was one on install again bizarrely and 23 of these things were AWOL from the internet and in terms of mobile analytics five

working six not applicable opt-out and three of those sites just failed to resolve so these days aren't great numbers really all things considered so I've handily color-coded these things blue for working orange a yellow for non-applicable and red for dead so in terms of online advertising you can see sixty-eight percent of them were fine and effectively thirty percent were missing in action online analytics again 53 were fine and the other chunk is made or proof non-applicable and broken web pages the mobile advertising which is all you believe the most important one ear so the purposes of you know this Tetris game is shocking frankly yeah the twenty-three percent actually work and this huge chunk of other website privacy

policies are either broken beyond repair or just not applicable which is which is incredible and again for mobile analytics only thirty-five percent are actually functionals the rest of them you does nothing for you to walk down cause there's no way c to opt out of it all the site is dead these aren't great numbers really considering the amount of companies that they list on me you know the the page for most of these that'd be so horrific alee broken is is unbelievable so in terms of actual word count I wanted to tell you roughly you know what kind of book you could go off and leave instead of jamming these privacy policies Daniel eyeball so the

online advertising waving their children for on sales and work you could go out and pick up east of eden which is a nice 225,000 and it would take you roughly 21 hours and 25 minutes to read all of those words in that collection of privacy policies in terms of online analytics forty-four thousand words there so you could go out and rather appropriately pick up Fahrenheit 451 ahem which is almost exactly the same word camp and that would take you a much more moderate four hours and five minutes to get through I think I'd stick would fell in right to be honest I'm I turns out the privacy policies and then set them on fire I don't know mobile

advertising a bit more than doubled up from the online analytics we've got 80,000 words The Secret Garden almost exactly the same word count and that would take you seven hours and 26 minutes to get through and in terms of mobile analytics we dropped down a bit so you get 50,000 words rather appropriately again a wrinkle in time kind of big wrinkle in contacted personally honest and that would take you four hours and 41 minutes to get through so I mean on balance I would stick with the library to be perfectly honest so 460,000 and 619 words later we have 200 to privacy policy companies listed and soul of those 110 work 36 month on applicable war-related and 66

were all fully broken so the hit rate for a major game publisher on google play with a very very popular app with millions and millions and millions of downloads is basically just a fraction over sixty one percent hit rate in terms of yes this privacy policy is here yes please read it and then you can play Tetris which is absolutely stark raving mad that I can't possibly comprehend how this is a thing so to tally up these numbers again 460,000 619 words across all four sections of Texas's you know privacy policy companies and it's give you an idea of the kind of ballpark urine with those sorts of numbers basically George Martin's long does the

book to date which comes in a for them to the 24 thousand words storm of swords again I would probably stick with the book to be honest rather than v.v the privacy policies and you know so in a couple more thousand words go to 418 you got the entirety of the lord of the rings trilogy now keep in mind that I was conservative with my estimates for the numbers I just wanted to try and get a baseline for what was out there with the guards how many words were involve so you know it's possible if you add in all the rest of the more you of the sites or you know if you can imagine a

situation where all of those broken websites actually function you know and we're talking about you know or just on the fifty percent I think of all the privacy policies the 212 companies listed in theory you could double this you could end up with maybe a seven hundred thousand eight hundred thousand words if those websites all worked and most privacy policies tend to come in at Randy the 500 word range about 500 to about 1300 ish and then you get these crazy outliers that can be like 2,000 force it's quite possible and you could end up with the entire lord of the rings trilogy and George Martin's longest book combined if all of those those missing

pages had actually worked this would take you roughly 22 hours and thousand five minutes or five words per second to play through all of those privacy policies I was actually going to you know fill myself reading all of these privacy policies and I think I got to about an hour and a half and unjust able it was for a braver soul than I could wait so many hours for so little return frankly but it's yeah it's absolutely crazy if you if you read a little bit slowest on three words a second 1337 hours and 39 minutes or three words a second well you know if you do read it one where the second and you really want

to play Tetris you can wave goodbye through a hundred plus hours of your life but now at last you can actually play Tetris so fantastic you've you've taken and all those privacy policies you understand what they're going to do with a data yep load that up and flying it off fantastic or not to be more accurate so I mean in terms of conclusions of this horrific bout of number-crunching see I actually feel sorry for the companies that have to put these things together because ultimately they have to write these horrific diatribes or they will get sued by somebody although something will go wrong and they're get into lots of trouble and you can't really win if you've got a really sure

privacy policy it probably misses things out the clever a person and I can go but actually and then you get into trouble if you write these big huge eye watering slabs of text then people aren't going to read past the first two paragraphs nobody reads these things and you know people will continue to run read these things and what companies some companies do like what we do and some of the others they will actually have a you lepage privacy policy page and they have all the legalese down on the left hand side and then they will have the plain English version so what each of these sections actually means for all of us out here but don't have more degrees on

the right so we we do that with our you know terms of service and all the rest of it there was a bit of a boom in there so a couple years back it became very chunky for some reason and then everybody just stop doing it again but you know that kind of thing can help and it's also very useful for companies that you know if you've got to put together a privacy policies until I know yourselves it's very good for the non legal people to sit down with the legal people and put together these plain English version and ask them to put together these plain English versions because it's much easier to think I hang on you miss this

this thing is missing what about that someone asks are there then then it's the legal person just gives you this huge block of text and you go well as I'm just stick it on the website so the plain English thing is very very useful where's the data going who knows I mean I I tried originally this this talk was all about you know where the data was physically going I had all these wacky ideas but I was going to map out you know all the points on the globe where the info was going what we were doing with the data who was being sent to I gave all passed around half an hour it was it was ridiculous because so many of

these companies would then have multiple places where the days would break off and go through so they'd have partnership protection officers in say Dublin and America and friends and this other place and before you knew you were back to I've got to read six thousand different website for breakfast and there's no way to be a particular exactly where the stuff is going because of you know what you've email and say well I'll tell you a few pop me an advert who you're doing some data analytics while I'm playing a game you know what were you sending this info they're probably not going to tell you and you know and then you're going to get bounced around between the five

different privacy officers that they've got all around the globe it is basically mission impossible to figure out exactly where this information is ending up and you know and keep in mind all of these words this is a mobile game you're expected to read that 400 sumfin thousand collection of words on this thing and I Drive it doesn't work you know it doesn't matter what what format yeah the thing it does not work so so clearly we need to come up with some sort of way to actually present people with privacy policies and you lose that they're actually label on the devices that were supposed to be playing and these gangs on it's bad enough on you

know on a desktop of the big screen yeah i think you know putting these things because i had three screens 3 21 inch screens all set up and I'm mapping it all out there was a nightmare i got blood coming out of my eyes at one point and yeah it is impossible to get three of these things on a tablet mobile any other device it just it does not work and give a hoot read a book is books are great frankly and on that awful awful pond now is basically my talk finish there are some hyperlinks verbal for some reason they don't show up on the screen I don't know why I've only had this mac for three

days don't kill me it's not my fault but you know if you've got any questions about the the websites that i use the piece emitting flow together if you want any info on you know the privacy policies that are out there on mobile desktop in general or just the horrific instances of oh god what am I reading then you know please ask your question now or after the talk finishes and I mean to be personally asked I think it's too early to tell what will happen is those what normally happens when there's any major changes and things like this behind the scenes there the legal people will go off they'll make some changes they're just come back with the

boilerplate text that you know complies with whatever relevant local laws are needed to comply with and it will still be the same old thing I think companies really need to get a handle on plane clear English comparisons between the the legal jibba jabba nonsense that they have on the site and you know the thing that the the person oh yeah i mean i have a technical background I know my way around these Euler's I know all the sort of sneaky weasel word phrases but companies will enter then and the ways that they will phrase things to make you think though you know they're looking at the store people they Dave nearly dumped her although you know they're they're

just kind of covering their back in a way that prevents them from being seeded or whatever and you know I I had major problems trying to make sense of all of these I mean if it just gives my brain turns almost by the end of it frankly I can tell you that the v8 privacy policies as they exist I'll you know do they well written they're not so with nonsense day they do exactly what they say on the tender problem is the so many awesome and it's so excessive it is beyond me and I think probably fair to say anyone to be able to honestly sit down read that 400,000 word pile and make sense of it all you know your jiggler

run screaming for the hills within a couple of hours so yeah I don't really see any significant change in terms of benefits for the people playing the games unfortunately now no I mean you can see going all the way back to you know 2004-2005 and there's there's earlier examples there now that that's the way we are the old-school Antwoord industry you know the 180 solutions of diet revenues and all those companies that's how they gain such an initial foothold and made so many millions because people just didn't read the blurb and that nobody reads them you know we need you install an update on on your Apple you know itunes doesn't update and it literally gives you all of

their EULA all over again to read before you can install the thing and nobody reads it I mean this does anyone in this room ever read the eula ever and it has anyone ever we've got one person there we go series and Senators d know those questions and open em like a month you know I thought you would give me a disgusting Elspeth fine yeah so you know with the two people in a room of an you know you all know your security stuff you'll probably familiar with it and I do it myself no I've done it myself I click through and it's all things and then oh well actually all too late and yeah I don't do that anyway I read

everything even if it doesn't really make that much sense just to be able to say okay I knew the risks before I got into this and this Bitcoin miner isn't going to blow up my hands and take three streets with it so yeah it's a bit of a disaster unfortunately any more questions okay funk well I mean feel free to come up and ask me something later on if you want i am leaving sort of earlyish because i have to catch a very early train to grab a flight so i think i'll leave about 3pm ish or something like that but and thanks for listening jeez