BSidesATL 2015: Online No One Knows You're Dead by Andrew Kalat

I'll try to stay within sight of the camera but I like to wander so my name is Andrew Cal as introduced uh I'm not going to give you a whole long back bio I'm an infosec guy and that's all that really matters for this talk this talk isn't so much about me this talk is really about Michael Hamlin how many of you knew Michael I know he was very well known by the industry wow uh decent Chuck but not everybody so for those who didn't know Michael he was very well known and very active in information security community and we'll get into all the details but that's really who I want to focus on today and

so a couple of upbeats there will be no cyber in this talk whatsoever aside from that disclaimer there'll be no more c words all right warning this is not a fun talk this is a difficult topic there will be difficult pictures there will be difficult things to talk about here but it's important we will try to keep it light we will try to not stay in a bad place at the end of this talk but I have to take you on a journey the point is that if you don't empathize and sympathize with this topic what I have to tell you won't resonate so I'm intentionally going to mess with your emotions I apologize in advance but it's

important so other thing I want to say apparently I've got some feedback over here I worked with Michael's Widow Beth and she gave her full support and input on this talk so in no way am I trying to do anything other than honor Michael and his life and also share important information and I would not have done this or approached this without Beth's approval okay so who are we talking about so Michael and Beth married many years Michael 43 both brilliant people Beth for instance is a scientist at the CDC not exactly you know a dumb person and that matters in this talk she's brilliant Michael also brilliant he used to work at everything from nuclear physics

to working uh his most recent job he had just taken his first CSO role for green Sky financial and he done all sorts of things in between so a brilliant guy he traveled the world he traveled extensively he done a lot of amazing things with his career in his life and was well known by many people he was part of the concerto Group which is the first uh caption flight not first sorry uh they ran the capture flight conversation competition at Defcon for many years and we're so successful before they ran it in winning it that they got asked to run it so pretty well known I I should have said this up right I do

apologize this is a bit of an emotional topic for me so I'm going to try to be numb throughout this but if I Stumble a little bit I apologize also I've got a lot of notes that I'm going to reference over here so I apologize if I break eye contact with you I know it's unprofessional during a talk but there's certain specific keys I need to hit and as I promised Martin there is very few walls of text slides very few but a couple mainly for reference so what have it was Sunday December 28th Michael and Beth were in Texas visiting family for the Christmas holiday they were driving along I-20 to see a friend

somebody going the other direction I-20 either fell asleep or went unconscious and in essence because they were unconscious lost control of their vehicle came across the median Through the Wire and hit their vehicle head on Michael and bether on a Nissan Rogue the other person was in a Honda Accord for all intents and purposes Michael was declared at the scene at very little Consciousness after the accident if any I want to give you an idea of what this accident was like yes this is a shocking picture but I'm trying to get through to you guys if this is real and that this could happen to any of us that was Michael's vehicle this was the other vehicle

it was the front offset Collision apparently Nissan Rogue doesn't do so well with those in immediate aftermath this was in Clyde Texas which is kind of in the middle of nowhere in Texas and Beth was awake but she had sustained a broken ankle a deep gastric arm lots of bruises lots of cuts they had to extract her and Michael from the vehicle and she was flown by a helicopter to a hospital the problem was nobody knew it happened and here's an interesting point one of the first points that kind of matters for us we rely on these little guys the contact everybody and to know our phone numbers in this instance of what I imagine

happened to mostences is Beth went removed from the vehicle lost all of her stuff even if any of it survived the crash she didn't have a phone she'd have an iPad she had nothing so here she is in a hospital in Texas nobody knows she's there and she doesn't have a good way of getting hold of anybody after this horrific incident just occurred fortunately their friend Gill was expecting them and gill who is also an infoset guy happened to have set up with Michael to find friends capability on the iPhone which I used to stalk my girlfriend he used it to figure out where Michael and Beth were and he started checking and he found

that Michael's phone was on but it was sitting on the side of the road in this weird part of I-20 where the accident occurred he kept kept checking it wasn't moving and he kind of just got the sense something was wrong so he actually started calling the police in the area and interestingly the police kind of confirmed to him a random person calling this has happened and this is how he found where Beth was meanwhile Beth had no contact info of any of her friends or family she had family in Texas she was able to basically tell them about a website that her brother had up and running that had a phone number on it and this

is on a Sunday they called this phone number and fortunately her sister-in-law was there and that's how she started getting a little family but the problem was she didn't have any other contact info so once Gill got to the hospital he brought with her with him another iPad and here's another good part of the technology she was able to get online and look through her contacts online and then start reaching out to friends and family but again without this technology I mean when I was a kid we had memorized everybody's phone number nowadays we don't memorize any of them so it's an interesting concept so meanwhile there in Texas they live here that's probably a key point they're

traveling they're visiting the issue the car is in park and fly so one of the first things they needed to do was get the car on a park and fly this is actually something I helped with I started calling park and fly called their local office called the regional office they didn't know what to do and this is going to be a common theme very few companies have a process or a procedure to deal with these incidents they don't know what to do and so like most customer service reps they blew me off what finally worked was tweeting out hey park and fly social media account I'm trying to retrieve my dead friend's car well someone please call me

uh I got a call within a couple of hours and they happily work with me to get the car now good on them they actually didn't charge at all for the stay and they were very good once I got their attention but one thing that I've found through this process is that a lot of companies don't have a procedure or process for this and one thing we found as well is that we'll talk about this from a social engineering aspect in a bit there's a lot of confusion when these things happen I know everybody's bummed out right now I'm sorry so let's talk about Michael's it footprint and here was the fundamental problem and I mentioned earlier Beth is

brilliant and she is she's not an I.T person Michael was an Uber I.T person you're going to see some pictures of his gear in a minute and because it's his hobby like most of us in here he handled all of the I.T for their family now here's the problem I put Beth in a severe disadvantage in terms of dealing with this problem after Michael suddenly was gone we're going to talk about the recommendations so to give an idea you know Michael had just about everything you could think of from an I.T footprint Gmail he had over 10 personal domains set up that he was hosting he had co-location servers going he had a bunch of stuff going at his own house he had

everything Apple ever made set up and running in his house pretty sure half of the stock price of Apple is because of Michael uh and he was doing side businesses and you know I was one one of Michael's closest friends and I didn't know half the stuff he had going on so this talk really is about how do we figure this stuff out and more importantly I think how do we help our loved ones deal with this unfortunate circumstance for abinas so to start to un untangle this once Beth was recovered and came back from Texas we were trying to figure out what to do and how to get her back online and this was as fundamental as

she didn't even necessarily have access to the Wi-Fi I mean unless she had a pre-configured device but she lost a lot of her devices so she's got new devices she didn't know the Wi-Fi password that's no fault on her but I'm sure a lot of you folks in here if you have a partner and they're not into Tech you probably settle this up you know so this isn't this isn't uncommon so it went so basic as she had a neighbor nearby come over and reset the WAFF back to default so she could at least get back online at the house fortunately as well Michael unlike a lot of people today kept paper records of his bills

if he hadn't done that it would have been very difficult for Beth and others to figure out what Michael was up to because we traced a lot of this back through credit card bills but a lot of us do online billing today and online receipts and all that sort of stuff so it's very difficult to find this stuff because keep in mind most all this is going to your email and so we're going to talk about how difficult it was to get back into email especially if it's if it's Google Google is incredibly difficult to get back into so we're going to talk about that um the other upside of this is that Beth was on most of the accounts

and Michael did make sure make sure of that but like most couples they split duties in their household they had different areas of strengths and weaknesses and you know this has nothing to do with gender roles it just has to do with Michael did all the I.T stuff because that was his gig but it put Beth in a bind in this circumstance Michael also had a bunch of boxes of the Colo and was hosting a bunch of stuff and we weren't even sure what's there so first of all keep in mind that kolos prohibit access to people who aren't authorized so the first thing we had to do was have Beth reach out to them and say uh hi uh

this is weird but my husband just died and uh he's got a bunch of boxes there we got to come figure out what they are and like many of the the things that we encountered they had no process or procedure for this or knew what to do the upside is they believe Beth which is helpful and she got me authorized as a as a person to come visit so um and I the Colo by the way is Cola blocks uh I do want to thank them publicly because they did a great job helping us figure this out and gave us all the help he needed uh they're up um just off of Cobb Parkway at Spring

if you ever have a need for a Colo in that area so what we found was Michael had five boxes I've been writing the cola and that's pretty much all I knew going in and because I'm lazy or efficient I took pictures right and uh this is the front this is the back a lot of stuff going on now for all uit folks you look at this going yeah no big deal but imagine if you don't know it and you walked into this and you're like I have no idea what this is or where to even start fortunately you know Beth knew to reach out to some people like myself who could help but imagine if your partner

couldn't there are things you can do to help them so again being lazy uh I started figuring out okay what's on these so we grab the crash card fortunately all these guys have VGA plugged it in started getting the screen up to see what they are uh we knew we had five boxes we knew we had 10 active IPS found out he had three ESX boxes and two Linux boxes all different versions because why standardize yeah hey that was you not me um so again because I'm lazy I just took pictures but what I started capturing was what versions what flavors what were these things because as most of you are thinking well this isn't so bad we can

create boot CDs and reset root right what right and that was a great idea until we hit a little Point later bingo um so various different flavors uh you know here's ESX 3i35 by the way one of these I can't remember which one uh here we got again three five here we've got uh Centos five one uh here we've got esxi 5o so we were all over the map on what versions he had running here much less what was on them so once I took all that back I made the the boot USBS and the boot CDs and had to do a cold boot on these guys which is dangerous but what else I want to do

to reset root so I could get in to see what was going on uh what are these by the way esxi 5o they decided to be more secure and said nope sorry you can't do that officially the only official way is to reinstall the the host OS there are some unofficial ways to get past this you can Google for them which which I did but it's you know could break stuff and it's dangerous but most of these were easy and and when I got in and found this I found out he had a bunch of different guest house running because why combine functionality when I can put them on multiple guess so we had one house that was just DNS we had one

host that was just email we had one host that was just Apache and then a couple different web servers spread out started figuring out what was out there what we found as well and this was a huge find was we figured out where he had registered his domains unfortunately for us he registered all them in one location if he had spread them out this would have been really hard and Beth discovered this from a credit card bill now again keep in mind this might only Bill once per year so in the meantime we're lost fortunately paper cup record found it knew it could get into it the other interesting thing that I'll mention now is that most of the time credit card

statements don't have the full credit card number and most of the time when you're calling these Services they want the full credit card number as as a verification of your account uh we didn't have that but what I'll tell you is when you play the my husband just died card it helps people will usually bend the rules for you so for the domain registrar Beth called first and was able to reset the password to something we knew I was able to get in and found all of these 10 domains that he had up and running and was able to map them back to what was going on at the colon and figure out what was important that

we had to keep going and we found a couple things remember that brother's business I mentioned earlier that website that was being hosted here and his email Beth had a a personal domain that was hosted at that this as well so did Michael along with a bunch of other stuff we actually found some people who were hosting stuff there that we had to contact and get them to come get their stuff basically and take their boxes and shift their hosting to someplace else that was an interesting and awkward conversation pardon me but this was a huge file so if you can try to use one registrar because it makes life easier for those of us trying to clean up the mess

what we were able to do is then figure out what we want to shift we took Beth's email off the server onto its own domain we took the brothers business from one of their family members rebuilt the website someplace else we repointed DNS to another web Pro Hosting provider pulled email off put it pointed someplace else reason for all this by the way one thing I forgot to tell you guys is all this was expensive and in a situation like that we were trying to stop the bleeding so there was a sense of urgency of getting this stuff shut down to get these bills to stop right as well as you know just getting control over all this

stuff so this was probably about a month-long process take it out let's check it out and shift it around and moved around and then once we've moved everything we knew we could move we just turned it off and see and see what was going to yell fortunately nothing did so we think we found and located everything but the home infrastructure was a whole different story yeah you got a question

yeah it's a good question I I talked to the Colo about that it was interesting because the Colo and the question was did we have the capability of doing passive monitoring on the Colo infrastructure to figure out what was going on there uh the short answer is the Colo did not they had just gone through an acquisition and we're just getting their monitoring stuff set back up because we said I sat with a Colo guy and I'm like great you've got I can't remember what the what the tool was let's go take a look at it because that was the exact idea we had and we pounded on for an hour and couldn't get any any data back so uh

yeah that would have made perfect sense but we just couldn't couldn't get it to go and at that point I had already gotten enough other progress elsewhere that I just kind of brute forced it but that is a great idea so the home infrastructure was a bigger mess Michael was a little bit of an I.T hoarder in fact I'm pretty sure we can start a museum with what's in his basement um the heat load from his basement was visible on satellites in fact we siphon the heat off to feed one of the power plants uh and here's the problem we had no idea what any of it did so again I want you to look at these next

pictures and forget you know anything about I.T this is just one of many shells of beer my God sitting around we could all look at that and know what that is pretend you don't no

this is about 10 percent think about this you walk into your basement and you're like ah Andy yeah it sounds like a problem for tomorrow right right um but you know in a situation like that you just want some sense of normalcy back so I will tell you we're still figuring this stuff out this talk is not all about wins we had some fails we'll talk about the fails so part of the problem that we ran into here is that we didn't know where any of the stuff was that you care about in a situation like this Michael was a huge Avid photographer I went on one trip with him he took over 2 800 pictures on that trip

module we were in a national park it's what you do uh we still don't know where those pictures are it could have been on one of these servers we're not sure okay and we're not we're not done yet but we're going to talk about that but at one point after we knew we had figured out all the infrastructure that was necessary for functioning we just said [ __ ] turn it off see what happens uh we didn't know what was interconnected with what we didn't know what talked to what at the Colo we'd already have the Colo shut down uh so that's what we did and uh at least to you know stop the heat load and turn off all the

electrical draw and and figure out where we were the easiest thing to do was tear it back down to minimums and build it back up and that's that's what we did uh Michael also had um oh hey one more picture I got a lot of Macs he was a big Apple fan and Apple's really really secure if you set it up that way really secure which is great if you want to keep somebody from stealing your gear or breaking in really sucks when you're doing what I'm trying to do so Michael had a MacBook Pro had a Mac Mini and a bunch of other stuff I'm like no problem I'll just create the OS X install disc

on USB we'll have some dinner I'll be into these in 10 minutes and we'll have an ice old time drink some wine here's all your stuff have a good day so my girlfriend and I head on up to Beth's house and they start making dinner and I pull up my little handy dandy hacking USB King thinking I'm going to be the hero and I boot up off it and I go to reset the root password and it goes nope what do you mean no pound at it for a little bit look at it a little more can't Mount the hard drive not weird oh Michael set up full disc encryption that's lovely all right anybody got an idea what password is

yeah no this is Michael there's probably a 38 000 character password yeah yeah believe it or not I tried stuff like that ABC 13 password just for giggles okay that sucks however Mac offers a recovery key option it looks like an activation key for like Windows it's a 16 digit or 12 digit character recovery key great let's see if we can find one of those couldn't however you can store the recovery key at apple.com excellent we know that's it figured out that Michael had used one of his own domains as his specific domain for registering to apple.com I'm like sweet I'll spin that baby back up and I'll go do a restore at apple.com and change password I'm in and see if

he's got his recovery key there yeah no again Apple's really secure so apple does not recognize any right of survivorship which by the way this is varied for all these different Cloud domains and services Alba pretty much says uh we don't care sorry this is the way we are we it's not going to work so we figured out that he was using mysecuritypartner.com as his email and got that spun back up got it posted on just a generic domain registrar provider all good um went to apple.com said hey I forgot my password all right great what's your recovery key do you know they said no problem you don't need to recovery key you just got to be on a

trusted device can't do that either so at this point they have this this policy that you need at least two items for the two-factor authentication Apple set up for Recovery either your Apple ID password access to a trusted device or recovery key I had none of those so in this case it was an epic fail and this is still ongoing by the way we are still trying to figure it out our next uh attempt is going to be calling and playing the I'm a sad Widow card yes Phil well you know I did I did and then a van showed up outside my house and they weren't helpful but I sent them a pizza so this got into a lot of other sort of

online services and how they work and what their policies are and what I found throughout this process in doing some research for this talk many different online services have highly varied policies when it comes to this for instance Google and this is you know wall text but it's actually a picture of a wall of text so that's you know breaking the rule uh they basically say Hey you know we recognize that if you don't know what to do you can come and ask for information about somebody's account and here's the various things you can do by the way you need a death certificate and all this other stuff and an ounce of blood in your firstborn and fill out a form and

we'll get back to you we filled out that form two months ago we have not heard from Google so do not count on this working for you in a timely manner and ultimately what they probably would do is send you a DVD with some specific information you requested they're not going to give you access to the account they're not going to change the password to something you know they say that explicitly oh and they also say by the way this is an interesting Counterpoint to Microsoft if you happen to know the password of the account you're not supposed to use it that's against our policies Microsoft on the other hand says hey if you know the password to the account and

you're next to Ken rock on have a nice day so interesting comparison there Google does have something interesting called the inactive account manager which is kind of some interesting voodoo the concept of it is after a certain period of inactivity you can trigger somebody to suddenly get access to your account or a certain data of your account or just being sent an email of hey I think I fell off the planet you should check on me and it's kind of odd because they they don't exactly tell you how they do it but you know how do they detect the lack of activity they say we look at several signals to understand whether you're still using Google accounts

and if you don't after some random period of time they will actually send to somebody you designate access to your stuff so something to think about if you've got a lot of stuff on Google Facebook actually has the most robust death policy they have a couple different things so first they've got these memorialized accounts which is kind of interesting um I will tell you uh the older I get and this is an obvious statement but the older I get the more people I know die and it's really odd now running across their accounts online because they're dead so what Facebook said is hey we know that this is sort of an online centralized Gathering Place so we want to spin up

this concept of immoralizing their accounts so it's sort of a virtual online morning site you know so you know you can you can post things on these on these you can share them people can view them but it doesn't appear in recommended friends it doesn't appear on birthdays doesn't appear in ads doesn't appear in um anything that looks like they're active and no one can actually log into the cap the account itself is not actually a real account anymore it's more just like a placeholder for their account anything they shared stays visible uh there's no password though and to do that basically Facebook has a form and again none of this is automated this all goes to people who have to

review it so it's a slow process the other option is if you're next to Ken you can ask them to just delete the account immediately so one of my takeaways for you guys is you may want to talk about with your next of kin what you want to happen to your online stuff after you die I know it sounds kind of morbid but would you want to still be running around online afterwards I guess that's something you need to decide they have a third option which is just kind of the Legacy contact and basically it's allow you to say hey this is my next of kin when it comes to my Facebook account and you can also set and designate hey

this is the person who gets to run this and oh by the way the only thing I want them to do is clean up and delete my account so Facebook actually has a pretty robust policy on this Critter apparently I want you to you know get into a mortgage with them for everything they want to know about us and your only option with Twitter really is to shut down the account but again you can see I won't read all this it's a pretty lengthy thing and here's the other thing because Twitter doesn't have a real name policy they ask for a lot to try to prove that this is

next of Kim process at Microsoft then it's kind of all encapsulated in our outlook.com uh it's pretty interesting they're willing to send you a DVD with all their information and again it's not not too bad you know they want to know the typical stuff but again they're not typically going to Grant you online access they're not typically going to give you access to the password but they say elsewhere hey if you have the password just use that because the same thing we're going to send you a DVD anyway again countering that to Google saying don't ever use it even if you know it you're not allowed well they would yeah so I'm actually getting through

this talk quicker than I thought but we'll have some good time for Q a so here's some overall Lessons Learned that I found and this is the first time I've presented this talk so I apologize if it went a little too quick but um we really haven't caught up from a technical aspect on next to Kin issues like we have from a physical property aspect and we are certainly growing faster and faster online and doing more and more things and uh things happen and so I don't know that we as a society have really figured out how to deal with that in the event of a sudden sudden death uh the other thing that I learned

through this process is that when you play the somebody died card especially when you are an immediate family member people inherently believe you Beth got dozens of death certificates printed up and rarely had to show them so if you're a social engineer be nice don't use this it's beyond the pale unless you're really really have to and then don't blame me uh very few companies unless you're one of those online providers have a policy on this it's interesting they're not used to this concept of their customer suddenly dying and they don't know what to do so it becomes a very personal process to work with those companies and get somebody on their side to understand the

situation and give a damn enough to help you most of them will but it breaks their process so a call center person is is their head will explode they have no idea they just uh please hold and they never come back to you they just don't know right it's too hard for them on eight books an hour to deal with so typically you've got to go up um to get philosophical for a second you know I I personally feel that that helping prepare our partners to deal with life after we're gone is a form of love it's how we show them that we care so I have some recommendations and here's where I got some wall of text and I

apologize to Martin first was Legacy drawer I'm going to come back to that because I've got a whole slide on that one that I'm a big believer in is switching roles in your in your household once a month or for a month once a year the concept being that if if you are the primary payer bills and the primary you know person who calls on the cable bill or whatever it is make sure the other person knows how to do that make sure they know how to shut off the gas make sure they know where the water valve is you know not only does it Empower them but It prepares them if something unfortunate were to happen

the next one that that is so difficult for us as security people to embrace is you may want to seriously consider using a password vault or some sort of shared password credentialing system and make sure they have access to it now if you're having an affair this talk cannot help you uh this talk cannot help you yeah envelope yes and we'll talk about that in a legacy drawer absolutely absolutely the only problem I have with that is I change my passwords too often right so I use one of the varied password managers online and if I can give them the master password to it that I don't change as often in that CL password yes

great idea

yeah for those who couldn't hear Phil he recommended an iron key which is a little USB has password valve inside of it physical item very good just don't have it on you during the crash that's that's very good it's good discipline

okay so Phil just brought up a good point couldn't hear him he had his partner try it first three times she didn't know how so it's good to test this stuff uh this is outside the normal topic of this talk but life insurance guys here's the problem most of us get our life insurance through our company Michael had just switched jobs in circumstances like this they they being the financial services industry 10 times your income to replace you financially you make 100 gram it's a million dollars of insurance ID being that can be invested you drop eight percent per year and it replaces your income we normally don't get that from our work they normally do one or two times

annual salary term life insurance is super cheap get it for 20 30 years 10 times a couple hundred bucks a year the last thing your family needs to deal with at a time like this it's Financial issues so I know it sucks I know it's not fun nothing in the stock is fun but it matters here's the other thing if you if you've shared digital memories store them someplace share have a backup drive that both you know how to get access to we're still looking for Michael's photo archives we don't know where they're at we think they're on one of these full disk encrypted drives and you know that sucks Phil you should add simplify

because I used to have racks in my house keep critical I keep here uncomplicated we'll come back to that let's talk about the Legacy drawer I saw this from Dave ramsey.com this is in essence where you want your family members to go when you're abducted by aliens in it you've got your willsness oh you have a will right you don't have a will because you can Will s of Staples Financial account info the institution the account number the password funeral instructions do you want to do something important different weird you know whatever these have your asses spread by a plane over your enemy's house I don't know that's where it should be insurance policy support documents tax

returns at least last couple years if this isn't a safe deposit box at least point in the safe deposit box for the key passwords to your shared account manager contact info for your lower CPAs point being everything that in the time of grieving they could go to and figure out how to keep running life you wanted one spot now this is a risk somebody gets a hold of this identity theft is Trivial right so you want to maybe put this in a fireproof safe in your house that kind of thing this is a balanced trade-off guys we're trying to balance usability of life after death with information security risk so you got to figure out what works for you

but that's what I put in here um this is on Dave ramsey.com I'll eventually publish these slides somewhere I know it's a lot of text yes this is exactly the gap a certified financial planner would feel sure so you're a CSP okay great so he's a cfp he wants you to talk to him or his partner sir other recommendations I meant to take a picture of my home it and I forgot I apologize make a simple little Network map that somebody else could yes

as opposed to like being an executive that's a great point absolutely I don't know if everybody heard that but for a safety deposit box if you add an authorized access holder they have a much easier job giving access to that safe deposit box than executor next of kin that sort of thing so very good point uh label your gear we're all anal aren't we OCD or is that just me uh put a little label on this is the router this is the switch the firewall it really helps it also helps by the way when you're traveling if something's broken and your old friend's calling you saying what do I reboot say the one that says router okay

that helps keep your critical idea at home uncomplicated as Phil was saying uh yeah we all love having racks and racks or racks of gear and you can do that but make that all lab gear if you can if you live with other this is all predicated concept that you have a partner right um if you don't I'm sorry and there's online dating sites that you can purchase and maybe that will help um if not try to keep your home it gear uncomplicated so that it's fixable by others on a serious note you know our time here is unknown uh make your time here worth it you don't know what's going to happen you know Michael was a phenomenal guy

and I remember Michael not for the toys he had or the stuff he bought not that there's anything wrong with that believe me I like toys but I remember for the things he did the things he experienced and the contributions he made to the stuff he cared about right and and you know frankly I don't I don't care if he did stuff that other people valued him what I thought most resonated is what he did in the stuff that he valued and that he was passionate about so you know one thing this experience has taught me is that that our our time is unknown and it's finite so this isn't dress rehearsal this is this is it

so try to make it worth it uh you know and ultimately talk to your partner about death it's a terrible topic nobody wants to talk about it and it's not fun I know all you guys are glum don't worry we're gonna head back up in a second here we're almost done um but let them know what you want let them know what you care about let them know what you would want to have happen after they're gone you know finally this is you know as I said what what we got this this opportunity so make it worth it uh this is some stuff that can really help your loved ones in the event something unfortunate were

to happen I never wanted to go through this process I'm sure Beth didn't but I'm hoping that sharing this with you guys is somewhat useful I know a lot of us will go yeah it's a great idea and then we're going to get home and something's going to be on TV or we're going to get into a video game and we're not going to do this but try to do this even if you only get 10 of it you're better off so with that any questions this is Michael I know I'll bummed you guys all out all right no questions one last thing I want to say we have a special guest who helped me with this Beth is here Beth

just wanted to stand up or wave this is

all right I know it's a weird talk not your typical thing I do want to thank b-sides for letting me do this and if you guys want to talk offline about any of this I'm happy I'll be at the after party drinking heavily and uh thanks thanks guys