Level Up Your SE Game: An Intro To Basic Psychology - Chris Pritchard

Good afternoon. I hope everybody is still wide awake after lunch and feeling energized. Um, as Jason said, my name is Chris. Um, I spent a long time in uh the water industry collecting it types. uh and then spent four years in what is known to the purple palace which is Dyson. It's called a purple house because pretty much every piece of furniture inside is purple after a while. I spent the last 10 years uh as a penation tester probably the last four to five pure focusing on testing. Uh and today I'm going to talk about social theory 101 stuff that I've learned that I want to help you with and help you understand and learn yourself.

Um back in 2017 2017 18 2017 18 um I presented at South London and also lucky enough to present at Defcon um about the basics of social engineering that was part one and in that part one I purposely stayed away from psychology because psychology tends to be quite scary when we're thinking in terms of cyber security not many people think about psychology I want to understand this. And so I focused on some really basic stuff about getting into buildings and talked about how I use really simple techniques breaking into airports, casinos, and critical natural structure. This is part two or part as I've named it. I'm actually going to start introducing you to some basic psychology

that will help you and let you get into some of these places with pressure. Don't go breaking into places that you should do. Um, so the first sort of introduction to psychology is very easy and gently uh is this gentleman here. Does anybody know who this is? No. Okay. Excuse me. Um, this guy is called George Armitage Miller. Fantastic middle name, Armitage. That's an unused name. Should we bring that back into the world? Uh, in 1956, uh, he was the, um, head of psychology for Harvard University. And in 1956, he published a journal and he came up with something that we now call Miller's law. uh and he basically concluded that our brains have the capacity roughly to remember seven

things a point in time and and process them. There are exceptions to that and that's why you've got that plus or minus two there. Some people can do more than seven, some people can do less than seven. But as average, we can process through our eyes and ears and noses etc. Seven things, right? So remember that seven magic number seven, I'm going to talk about it uh and I'm going to talk about it in more detail and how it applies to social but also how it applies to everyday life as well. Um, so often when you are doing a social engineering engagement, you are trying to get from the outside to the inside. If you're trying to get from the inside

to the outside, you're probably in prison. And I can't help you with that. And assuming you are trying to get in from the outside to the inside, you've probably done some kind of open source intelligence scattering and trying to work out what the facility is you're trying to get into. You're given a target. How do you get into it? And one of the things I suggest doing is on-site reconnaissance and actually going to that place and walk around it, looking at it, seeing what you can see and understanding why why are we here? What are we trying to do? What is our target? What are we trying to achieve? Normally, your clients will have given you some

kind of thing that you must do. Whether that's be getting in uh or whether you need to get to the right folder in finance, which is the yearly results before they're published, or whether it's you've got to plug into the network and try it from the inside, something along those lines. So, you need to understand how you're going to achieve those things. Um and common one is what do you need to do? What would you actually need to do to get into a big facility or an office block or whatever it is that your uh engagement is trying to get you into? And one of the things that I suggest we do is we look for some details. Now it

might be something like what does employee badge look like for example. Um, and hopefully you've done some open source intelligence whilst you're home for example and have got understanding of what a bad employee badge looks like because people are very nice and often post their ID badges on LinkedIn when they leave that particular company which is fantastic. Thank you very much for doing that. It's helped me out a great deal. Um, and you also will try to look at what method of entry there are. Do employees go in through the front door? Do visitors go in through the front door and employees go by the side door? Is there a delivery entrance around the back that might be easier than trying to

walk in through the front door, for example? Try and understand all of these things because they're important to you. They're going to help. And the other one is how many layers are there? And this is one that I think is not thought about a great deal where we do social engineering that a little bit of war stories. Um be prepared for multiple layers and by that I mean there might be uh a perimeter that is guarded in some way and you try to get into that and then if you do certainly get past that what other barriers are there going to be? Are there going to be swipe doors or something along those lines? further

inside into the core of the vicinity. Now I'll tell you about a real life experience that uh myself and a colleague of mine had probably a year ago across in the US where we were tasked with getting into a facility that armed. Now I can tell you as people in the UK we're not used to guns and so seeing a gun for the first time or time that first time that year for example that was quite a shock and then remembering oh I need to break into this facility disarmed certainly sharpens my a little bit. Um now we performed quite a lot of surgeries. We'd got an idea of what ID badges look like and thankfully somebody

had posted their ID badge on LinkedIn. Uh and so we made a visual clone. It was purely a visual clone and there was nothing else to it. It was an electronic uh element to it whatsoever. It was purely visual. So if I take it to a a door reader, nothing would have happened. You wouldn't have even beat. It was just a blank card. But visually it looked very very similar. And with some reconnaissance, I saw that uh these armed guards were visually inspecting them. So you drive up in your car, you have to wind down your window and present your badge to the armed guard like that. Um, and that was why because visually it

looked correct because seven things roughly remember that this law that we talked about earlier, seven things in the way that we reproduced that bash looked right. So that got us that got into the the grounds. Um, but then we got into a car park and we were met with this Now, that is floor ceiling uh gates. Pretty difficult to get into with a badge that doesn't electronically work and only visually works. But what we did notice was that there was a tiny little intercom button down the side here. And we came up with a plan and we sat and we watched people using this inter intercom button and we came up with a plan how we could

potentially get past those. And so we pressed the intercom button and we had a preex and a story ready. We went, "Hi, it's Chris here from the IT department from the UK office. My UK badge does not work on the US office door cases." Anyway, no problem. Go stand in front of gate number one.

I'm sorry. This is an armed facility and I've pressed an intercom button and given you nothing else other than I'm from the UK and you've let me in. Crazy. Okay. What got us to that point was that visual phoning of those badges. Um, and so in uh that first automotions, what I ask you to do is is notice when you're doing that online constants, notice how badges are worn, where they are, what they look like, whether they've got any tricks on, you know, is that on a lanyard, for example? Is it took a hit? Does it have one of these funny things on it? Uh, what else can you tell about it? Is it landscape

portrait, etc. make note of those things because essentially, as I've shown, you need to get six or seven of those things roughly right to get you into a place that's armed. Right? This is an armed facility and a facility is armed, it's protecting some pretty serious stuff that needs to be protected with armed guards. Now, again, a very similar example I talked about in that first talk. Um, a blank version of this official seven thing added to it if you like got me into a major UK airport. That was it. That is that that is how I wore it because I copied how they were wearing their badges and the fact that they had trinkets and stuff on them and

they wearing them like that got me into a major UK airport into the bits they definitely should have been into. Now that badge is blank. It's white. There's nothing on it. Nothing at all. It should have had stuff on it. It should have had the airport name on it. It should have had blue bars and stuff on the bottom. It should have had my picture. Uh, it should have had what areas I'm allowed to go into. It had none of that. It was just blank. But it had trinkets on it and everybody else in the building had trinkets on and I was emulating that. Okay. Um, so some things that you can do to make your bag look even more realistic

and these are things that I use on the hard job there. Um, and um, as I said, you've probably been on LinkedIn, you've got some ideas of of what it looks like uh, and and you've mocked up something similar. Um, now I'm using this as a demo badge. Please, please, please do not essay or hack the AHS. This is just a demonstration because I found it very, very easy on the internet. But the NHS are amazing and they're underfunded. uh and we do not want anything bad to happen because they save other lives every day. So this is just a demo batch but looking at it there is text up there that is in a particular point and there

are colors up there there's a picture there's a name etc but that was just something I searched for literally for this talk employee ID bad that came as an example but let's another one let's move away from their test cuz we love them and I made up this bad right standard badge it's got some black uh background on it it's got social engineering one. It's got my Mexican scul picture on it. Uh it's got my picture, my name, model employee. Obviously, this is very bad for myself. Um but this is a really clear cut picture. The pictures that you get when people leave company like LinkedIn, for example, they're fuzzy. They're not clear. Someone's taking a

picture with a camera phone for example that they're then using to post on LinkedIn. And as we probably know, especially with uh social media, um camera phones adjust colors and they make colors. They emphasize certain particular colors. You've got filters on or anything like that. So taking a photo with a camera phone won't necessarily give you exactly the right colors that you want. But we do want no colors because we want to try and be real. Um, so how can I make them a bit better? Well, the easiest thing to do is to look it up. And I uh the marketing team will often publish the exact hex colors and RGB colors that they use in their corporate entity

so that you can publish media articles in their files and in their files and they make that public and yeah I mean I just have to say thank you marketing team. You're doing me great favor. I love you. Thank you very much. But let's go back to the NHS again. The NHS do the same thing. And again, disclaimer there at the bottom. Please do not hack the NHS. They are fantastic. But they are publishing all of their colors on the internet publicly available. And there are so so many companies that do exactly the same. And um that last place was exactly the same. The media had published the exact RGB color they used on all of the different sections of

their badges and where they were able to make a pretty much exact to the point that our guard couldn't spot it even though he was holding it in front of um while on the subject of printing badges a couple of quick bad recommendations and get asked this question. Uh the Badgy 200 is is pretty uh does a really good job. Um there's two versions of the 100 uh which is single sided i.e. only prints on one side at a time. So you can put the badge back in and flip across and do the other side if you want to. The 100 has got a 2 mil gap around the outside, but it doesn't really matter because when it's,

you know, a hole like this, you don't see that 2 mil gap anyway. and nobody looking at a car enough as we know. Uh and then the the 200 just seems that and there are plenty of them on eBay uh other printers. The only thing I'd say about the ones that you can find on eBay, um, they are often from corporate environments and very very heavily used and the print heads on them and the print ribbons don't tend to come to you in a very good condition, which is why I sell them in the first place. But also, they won't license the software to non corporations. So, just be careful with the eBay ones, but there

are some some some cheap ones on it. So, just a quick back. So going back to that really clothing about does it have to be exact absolutely not remember law seven things just seven things roughly in your whole appearance it doesn't even need to be just the bag it needs to be seven things correct the whole appearance in the persona the way you portray yourself just needs to be that second thing anything more or less than that no problem um and I'm going to tell you other real war story again and I'm taking from woman we just talked about a minute ago where we managed to get part of Zard into the interior bit. Uh we

wanted to do something a bit more um and a bit more persistent cuz we wanted persistent access because we didn't want to rely on pressing the intercom button every day to be able to go hey Chris from the UK office please let me in. We wanted persistent access. So how could we do that? How could we get persistent access? Well, the easiest way we thought was to go and see the reception team. Uh, and we went up to reception and uh, we said, "Hi, it's Chris here from the UK office. My bad does not work in the US office. What can I do?" And they went, "Oh, no problem. Um, yeah, no problem. Uh, if I

could just take your badge for a second and I'll I'll I'll make you a new one." This is great. come and she took that and she looked at the picture in my face on the badge and she looked at me and she looked at the bad satisfied no problem there's a match t my name on the computer came up came up with a picture of the badge on the computer she looked at that excuse me she went through the badge and she went yeah no problem give me two I'll bring you out a new one. You can hold on to this one for we go back to the UK office. Uh and um here's one that will a

US equivalent of what you've got now. And off you go. And that that bad worked. But see if you can spot the very very slight, this is a minuscule difference between the picture of the face on this one and the picture of the face on the back.

Yeah. And that was it. We got persistent access because nearly everything there on my badge was right. It was that seven thing Miller's law again. There were seven things that were right. There was one thing that was wrong. Well, too, if you count the borders, which I don't have. Um, but that got a specific access to an armed facility that was secure stuff. Um, and now what we wanted to do is something you have to be really careful with in social engineering is not name a person. I never ever name a person's name in my report because I want to test whether it is a people problem or a press. And so on this particular job, there were two of us.

One of us went in the morning and did this. Uh and then we waited for a shift change. There was a shift change about 2:00 in the afternoon and the next person came on and I went and did exactly the same thing and we had exactly the same result. And I can tell you that both photographs of both of the real genuine employees looks nothing like who we presented ourselves as when we went to reception and yet in both cases we were given rest office and that gave us an access so there was a problem there not a people problem but easy to overflow if you like somebody's uh thought process by interrupting them or something along

those lines. Whilst they're trying to mentally figure out those seven things, you know, with color, right? That's one thing. But if you interrupt somebody whilst you're doing that, you are overflowing their way a little bit and you you buff overflow fear number one and number two and now number seven is coming and they can't. Um so that's one area basically playing the badges. um some of the sort of psychology things if you like and that's around being flexible um because you are going to encounter challenges and things when you are doing social engineering when I'm talking about flexible I'm not talking about yoga but it is quite relaxing um and so how do you deal with things

when your plan isn't really quite going to plan um and so what you often do when you're doing something is you work on a pretext story I tend to be hi I'm Chris from the IT department and that's partly because my background is IT I come from a support background I used to work on service desk etc. So everything I know about the terminologist I write about tends to be it support related. Um but then what I try and do is I try and think ahead what sort of challenges might I get? What hurdles might I face and how can I deal with those things? I will say them out loud. I will literally talk to

myself out loud as if I was being challenged by somebody or conversation. And this really helps because the more you practice something, the easier it becomes when you come when you actually get challenged because you are dealing with something that is coming from your subconscious which is much much quicker than dealing with something from your conscious which is slow. Uh and then you'll be ready to handle any kind of surprises. Now again going back to that one instance at that one US job we were there 2 weeks um we had t-shirts printed up and all sorts this particular company and one day I happened to be got to breakfast uh and back in the lift going

back up to my room to go get my laptop and I got that company's t-shirt the logo was to the side there stepped into the lift and there was a lady there in any way trying to American accent but she was a strong New York accent and she said oh hi I'm from same company you for the company uh retreat this week yes I got this and I yes yes surprise luckily I practiced making answers I practiced talking about the things I did I practiced talking about my job title and why I would be there what I was doing and so my answers were natural They were not mumbled or thought about or slow in any way. I had answers ready

because I thought about it. I practiced it. And that really worked. And she was none the wiser. And I saw her every day. And every day it was please don't ask more questions. Um, okay. So, some more psychology. Uh, and again, I'm just trying to be gentle with this. One of the things I think is really important especially when you walk into an office that is uh as as office often are these days is making an entrance. Um and I want to give you some tips about how you can uh fake if you like confidence when you walk into somewhere that you've never been to before. Um and I'm talking about cloning a previous mental state. Sounds

complicated. It's not. Let me give you an example. So, let's say we go on holiday and the first day you go on holiday, you walk to the pool and you get there and you have no idea where anything is. You don't know where the sun beds are, you don't know where the going get the towels from, you don't know where the food is, you don't know where the bar is, etc., etc. And so, you stand there, you walk into the place, and you're lost. You're lately lost and you're very obviously lost. and anybody else who's been there for a few days, oh, you guys, but as you stay there longer and on day two and day three, day two, you walk

there, you'll know where things are because you remember stuff from day one, you know what to person is or box or whatever. Uh, and then eventually you'll get day five and you know, you'll be like this. you just so relaxed because you know where everything is and you've got your idea there and you've probably got a cabana books and and all sorts of stuff and and you're very happy and you're very confident. Now what I suggest you do is replicate that mental state. Think about the next time you do this in your current body, think about the differences in your body language, but also your mental state to what you were like when you arrived on

day one to what you like on day five in day two. Because if you can replicate that state, you can clone it if you like and copy it and do exactly the same when you walk into an office or somewhere that you've not ever been before, but you want to walk in. Copy it. Try that. Um, I'm going to touch very quickly on body language and behavior. Um, and I always recommend, and this may seem obvious, but going back where it's not being obvious, understanding body language before you come and try the rather than after, cuz that doesn't tend to work. It tends to get you. And there is a guy called Joe Navaro who

is the ex FBI. He goes to the office. He is the interrogator. He used to be the head of interrogation for FBI. Uh he knows a few things about language and he's got a top 10 video on YouTube which is really really good. Uh one of the other things about um trying to observe people if you like is staring. Um when we are often beginning in this sort of uh area you want to learn about our body language but you don't want to stare cuz staring makes you a bit weird, right? Um, Joe has a video on how to look at people and observe them without looking like you're and that's uh very good. If you don't

get body language or it's not your thing, there are there is one thing I would do when a conversation with somebody that I look for and it's very easy. It's a really simple trick. Am I causing comfort or discomfort when I'm having a conversation with somebody or when I'm looking at somebody or when I'm interacting? If we can just break it down, I don't need to know about um you know whether their headffects affecting their throat or anything along those lines. I don't need to know about any of that. I just start off and I just want to start simple. How causing comfort or really really easy. Okay. um reciprocation. This is a really common one uh and it's

talked about a lot uh and uh people laugh about it and I understand that because um it it seems but it works. Uh so reciprocation is is a triple ter

I can time that so the first is the non card second door kindly let me in. Um and what's really really crazy about this is you don't even need to actually do that thing. If I had two coffee cups in my hand, I went to these doors and arrived there and I went, "Oh," and they said, "Oh, I mean, sorry, I've got my hands full." Just the sheer fact that I've offered to do something kind and nice is causes a reciprocal response to the other person. We will likely open that second door for you even though I haven't opened the first one. I just offered crazy, but that works. Um yeah, people will often uh reciprocate based on that.

And again, the number of times led to this situation just by doing something really simple as stupid as that is crazy. Absolutely crazy. Um some friendship signals. Again, this is some body language type stuff. There's a guy called Jack um who has got a book called The Life Switch, which is really interesting if you want to read more about this sort of stuff. Um, and he's got some very basic friendships he talks about. And the first one is called the eyebrow rush. Uh, and you do not know often. This is a subconscious reaction. We're doing this. You often when you meet somebody for the first time, you just raise your eyes just a tiny bit, 16th a second. You can

practice doing that. I don't suggest that you sit there and do this cuz that's going to give you a response. Um but just real quick gentle uh uh flash of eyebrows is enough. Um the other one is head tilt. Uh and this comes back from medieval type days where people used to walk around with big thoughts and if you tilt your head to one side it is a signal to the other person that you trust them. And the reason you were showing that you trust them is because if you did this in the old days and you weren't trusting another person, they would likely have an easier way to cut off your head with their big sword.

Prison, sorry. Um, but still to this day works. You can tilt your head to the side and somebody will think, "Oh, I trust you because he's exposing a sensitive and delicate part of his body to me." So, if he must trust me, I will trust him back. It's difficult. And then the last one uh in these uh friendship uh sort of symbols you like is a smile. Uh and you can practice smiling and you can have triggers in your uh brain that will help you practice a genuine smile. Humans are very very good at noticing when somebody is fake smile. So don't do that. Um uh there is some again gruesome sorry research when back in the legal days

when people did research on actual like bodies and stuff and they worked out there's a couple of muscles about here somewhere and if those not engaged then you can smile properly and your smile becomes fake fake and you know the difference. Um to practice smiling uh what I do is I have a basically a mental memory and I remember if I want to do a smile somebody and I want it to be gen I have a mental memory that I recall and that makes me smile. I will tell you about um toxic life tip. If you want people to like you make them feel good about themselves. Uh so you as a as a as a

right it's so so easy. Uh and um again it's a reciprocal thing. People will say back to you and they will feel grateful and you are now uh important to them and they will like you etc etc. It can be even simpler than that. It could be doesn't even be as a compliment as such. Um, uh, one of the ones that I used before is like a shirt. Uh, one of my friends been looking for one of these for me for ages. We haven't already got it. Was it expensive and you just compliment my shirt? But not directly. It's quite also that same works. Um, in a social engineering sense, be careful reference signals because that makes you

approachable and you might not want to be approachable. You might want to remain hidden uh and uh out of the dark. Uh, I'm guessing

>> yes, perfect. Also known as mirroring. um mirroring is a subconscious way of uh again giving a false signal that um you are on the same page as the other person. Now people talk about mirroring talk about body language mirroring and so Jason like that and I do the same thing back to him that is quite common that's one that's often talked about um but you can do verbal mirroring as well and that is literally repeating the last three words of the sentence back to somebody with a slight inflection as if you're asking a question. So um um give me an example. Jason challenges me and says can I see your ID badge please? If I said you want to see my ID badge, I

haven't shut down the conversation because normally the answer to that question would be yes or no, right? Yes, you can see my ID badge or you can't see my ID badge. But by reflecting it back to him, I have to engage in conversation and he will have to give me more detail about why he wants to see my ID badge. And then he went into negotiation saying rather than yes, you can see my badge and no. And that helps because you now got more chance to negotiate with that person and work away not giving an ID badge or it being different from what he expected. Okay. Uh quick up. I want to point this out. I think this is really important

and I get asked this a lot. Um none of these things are natural. I am not a natural social engineer. I am not a natural extrovert. Um talking absolute crap out of me. But these are things I've practiced, I've learned, and I've got better at. So engineering, again, same as playing an instrument or, you know, whatever. You practice it, you get better at it. There are ways to practice these things at home and get better at them before you go out into the real world. As a quick summary, M's law, remember that seven things doesn't need to be perfect. Uh, do you on site recon some specific objectives? How do we decode a badge? uh practice your bits at

home and practice everything you can at home even those challenges you might get as well and be flexible sizes uh basically that confidence gate and observe the point and people around you and any questions

Is there a real world example you can speak about tell us any real examples you can tell us about of what communication done? I can I I can talk to you for hours about successful engagements. What I can't do is tell you the places. So these examples here were real successful examples. Um if you the link of studio those are real world examples as well. um to give you all a real world example basically rather than so yeah how you just >> what's the most difficult feature replicate from you come across >> holograms so that you know what I'm talking about there the the the guard uh has a security feature. They have holographs holographensive.

I haven't got the budget for that either as a company that got a budget for that. Um I think this again goes back to that Mill thing. Uh we noticed that straight on the hologram looked like like a light gray. And it was a logo of the company, but it looked like light gray. And so we painted our bash light. That that hologram was light gray. When you tilted it, you can see it was not holograph. But when we presented it to guard doing that, I'm holding it. I'm not tilting it. I'm in control of the bag. And postco touch anything with m. So I held it like that. Sorry. What's your opinion on just

having a blank force actually? >> Um I mean what we have copy here is electronic fing. Um if your electronic badge system is robustly secure uh which are um then sure I mean this is extreme because facility so there's two layers of security so there ar

in your

fascinated techniques. >> I don't no um I'll come very briefly. My mom is what what got me into my mom went back to university here when this was uh back when I was about 14. She psychology. I used to proof read that's what I wanted to do. I never ch and so it didn't I know that it's quite common. Um but I also know there's quite a lot of that refuse it as well. That's an excellent answer. You know what? >> Yeah. >> Like how do you go through situation? >> Yeah. Great question and it's tough. Um your nerves is the first one cuz you often be you know if you were to look at

your hand that situation you're probably doing that. Uh I don't wear an Apple Watch. I have no idea what my heart rate would be, but it would be very high, I'm sure. Um, the thing I talked about where I talk about practicing in a mirror, the challenges that you might face, trying to think about those challenges. Okay, so that's my challenge. How would I get out of it? What excuse would I come up with? What sentences can I say? What uh logic could there be for her to go, you've got a beard and a ball and on our computer system badge and you have in life. Yeah. I don't know. But I need to think about that. That's why we practice

those potential challenges in advance because your subconscious is much much bigger than your conscious. So you need to be able to get out quickly and not look like you're fumbling if you're thinking about it. It's difficult. It's really hard and and learning and understanding about challenges before they happen is a practice thing, you know, cuz some at some point you'll go I don't know what to expect. Um and then you just have to work around and learn from it. >> Yeah. She shouldn't fail. Say he's like an off guard and you had basically no excuse. Would you say investigation or would you not break? >> It's a great question. There is a there's a balance as there is

where everything inside um there is a balance to be had between recognizing that the process is working as expected and I should give myself up and break even I'll be better over um compared with I can see a flaw in process I should push hard uh and understanding what that balance is is difficult But yeah, if you can recognize actually this is a good process this is working doing check reading somebody getting my supervisor out whatever that is a process that's working then I'm not pushing any further I'm just going to look >> clipboard your overall success rate >> uh in every social engineering job I've done all ones we've All of them. >> All of them. I have uh I have only been

>> I've been social engineering for 9 years. >> Yeah. So I believe where I've had to get a letter. >> Pretty much answers my question. Was there ever a risk to your safety between like being spotted like okay this person's not here they are and you having a chance to pull the letter out and explain cuz I imagine places very high security they will automatically think yeah your intent is we're going to um yes so when we talk pre about these things what things we talk about deescalation. Um, but you know, you were brave into some really cheap stuff. Uh, the photo I showed you with the trinkets was wearing a suit jacket and I had my get out of jail

letter on the inside pocket of my suit jacket and I thought you idiot. He gets stopped by armed guards at an airport and you go, "Don't worry, don't worry. Let me get my So, yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Um, we can take one more. What would you say is the most common mistake someone make in in >> um um the most common things I see people getting too excited the actual SE person getting too excited getting over excited uh and fluffing stuff not having practiced the pretext or done enough research into the protests and and the wedding and the terminology that they might use in that industry. Um, it's probably the things that get caught and are the biggest

mistakes. Uh, and I've had a few people shadow me. I do my job uh to help them learn and to teach them. And that's probably one of the things I keep up. You know, we're not dealing with people that are guards and stuff. We're not in a life of emotions. Nothing bad is going to happen here. We're just doing our job. So, calm. It's fine. But yeah, that's probably the most. Okay. Thank you very much, everybody.