CG - Hacks and Crafts: Improvised Physical Security Tools for Improvised Situations - TBD

those might talk hacks and crafts improvised physical securities tools for improvised situation the name needs some work probably needs to like an acronym like shield or something disclaimer this presenter is not responsible for somebody using the techniques taught in this presentation to do something illegal I have to include this because this has happened to me where I've taught somebody lock-picking and they've gone ahead and done something illegal and immediately got caught only break into places that you own or get the express permission from the owner to break into breaking and entering with possession of burglary tools depending on the state is multiple felony deal and not very fun have fun otherwise it'd be very creative disclaimer okay slide

doesn't want to work the way it's supposed to oh yeah there we go how-to powerpoints talk rules so interrupt me at any point to ask any questions to our ideas just tell me I'm stupid this talk is a collaborative thing I'm not just talking at you and and have fun I want to say that Who am I I'm Jeff Toth I'm a security consultant ntt Security's threat services I've been teaching lock-picking for almost 5 or 6 years now I've kind of lost count I've been bypassing and picking locks for about 10 years there's my twitter handle if you care multiplayer security comm is a blog I never ride on anymore I'm a noted Florida man and beard owner so important

safety tip Thank You Gunn when working with tools be careful especially when cutting metal you should wear gloves for instance this this tool right here could slice off your fingers so you don't want to put your finger in there and then close it that's bad yeah fingers are important so you don't want to do that sand down anything metal so you don't cut yourself while using the tool also just as a precaution use some gaffers tape or electrical tape in case you missed a burr and I literally cut my finger while making the slide playing with metal shavings cleaning them up so do as I say not what I do but I do have gloves with me so what what this talk is

it is building physical security tools on demand whether on-site and desperate or want to try something new so it's also thinking outside the box by visiting your local hardware store and creating a dialogue to open-source tools for people to use and create hopefully you get inspired and make something new that nobody's ever seen before what this talk is not idk my BFF Jill this is not burglary 101 and this is not lock-picking one-on-one if you're not familiar with basic lock-picking bypassed concepts you might not be you know it might be a little over your head why why am I doing this tools are expensive you know I was poor at some point and I wanted to do this stuff

people are unreliable and often forget things at home TSA may think your tools are some part of a terrorist plot and take them away tools do break you may be broken just breaking into security and things are expensive two is one one is none anyone familiar with that philosophy I'm not military but I read red team's blog so I'm not made of money this is the under door tool from rift Recon retail price of forty nine ninety five give fifty bucks to buy one of these things every time it breaks or get lost or the consultant loses it or something now granted it's very well made under door tool but it's fifty dollars tools of the trade

so I normally have a multi-tool but I lost mine so playing the part of the multi tool is the tool tool two tools I need out of it is a pair of pliers and the file metal snipping tool shrink wrap wires the various lengths as you can see in the Futurama picture some string and gaffers tape or electrical tape weird shop so you might find this weird because they literally have everything under the Sun generally but Home Depot knows kind of suck for getting this stuff the for the under door tool crafting materials you won't find a piece of metal rod that's six feet of length some reason cannot find them LDP almost stopped carrying it the place

that I really had success at finding it was Ace Hardware and local hardware stores where do you buy things that you just kind of need one off and don't need to rely on for the rest your life is harbor freight tools the tools are not reliable but actually I spend a lot of time at Harbor Freight thinking of new tools to create our new materials to use to make flea market dollar booths are actually pretty fantastic too it's usually a bunch of crap from China sold for a dollar about two one to two dollars we could find some fun practice locks there as well and just various materials to play with so the under door

tool is everybody familiar with this tool everybody heard that before no careful yeah question yeah generally habit that free man in the restore is a great place mine just kind of blows I last time I went there they were like ovens from the forties so I just generally avoided other cities seem to have amazing Habitat for Humanity ReStore but it's a great place to buy stuff and support a great charity so who's here familiar with this tool at least I know you guys have heard of it okay has anybody made one cool those two guys three guys okay cool so it's kind of expensive at retail we saw the roof freak on one it's a very nice tool but

it's very expensive 50 bucks but this tool can be made in under five minutes with under 20 dollars worth of stuff so what's the recipe for it um generally I use 3/16 six-foot steel rod um I'm not sure which rod that's this one yeah this is a 3/16 I'm not gonna be using that today I'm going to be using 1/8 inch which apparently is better and that's gonna fall off it can be found sometimes at Home Depot Lowe's but most reliably I found out that Ace Hardware like I said weirdly the the big-box stores do not do not actually have it twine playing the part of twine today is some paracord because I left my twine at home

and the B size staff was able to provide this for me some minor upper-body strength if you want to do an upgraded version you can use stainless steel wire instead of twine and the key ring to hook to the wire you can also use musical wire instead of a steel rod that makes it more flexible and more travel friendly weirdly it's really hard to find something in the proper length for that I found stuff between 4 feet and yes piano wire that's what brief recon uses my assumption is they buy it in bulk because I can only buy either three-foot lights of it or several miles spools of it on Alibaba no less and is actually

pretty affordable only four hundred bucks for three miles so yeah how's it made so this because it was kind of difficult difficult to get a six foot metal rod through the airport we had to fold these up and so one of them ended up looking like a paper clip so he's gonna take me all of like a minute to make the rough shape so basically like I said some minor upper-body strength we've got some rough shape looking of it that's it pretty much and then to make it really fancy we could put a bend in it a little hook for the string to sit on there we go never make it really fancy then we take the

string or in this case paracord try not to feel my beer tie a simple knot around it and we have an under door tool

[Applause] reading my slides so who's not familiar with the under tool how it works cool so um we don't I mean we could use it right here could probably open this one or here is it's exploiting latches so you guys see how his latches right here so this may be about the right height it's uh fix this Bend a little bit but essentially what I'm doing is I'm slipping this under the door if it slips on through the door somebody on the other side is probably wondering what the heck is going on man if this works okay I should be able to maybe hit that latch it's not high enough nope concept kind of works but

I'm not hitting the latch so it's not tight enough nope and it's stuck so it's gonna stay there I'll try to get out later mounting your door as low to the ground as possible that actually is a legit technique and I'll show you guys how to make it tool 2 by 6's that later don't leave a gap between the door on the floor so either resting it really low to the carpet or by putting a piece of metal along the bottom of the door preferences metal plate because I can also like I said a he's a pop lock tool or a wedge shove tool to go underneath the door and actually kind of lift it a

little bit block the door handle gap so that a tool cannot be placed on it a deviant Olin gave a talk at besides Orlando earlier this year and he found a 3.56 set solution from Home Depot essentially I don't know if anybody sitting here in the tuscany but they have these here in the tuscany in your closet door there's a little piece of plastic mounted to the floor that guides your closet that can also be placed between the door handle gap and the door to prevent that kind of attack happening apparently it's super common another thing you do is wrap a towel around your hotel door handle and mount handles so appoints portrait instead of horizontal

landscape deviant story from his talk he was talking to a hotel manager apparently homeless people and anarchists were breaking into the hotels and just crashing in the hotels and squatting so how it works here's the video of a friend of mine actually successfully performing this attack at a hotel

using a homemade tool I might also add I

hope they feel like Ghostbusters kind of so once we get that unstuck somebody can have it I don't need to bring it back to Florida with me it's a crash bar tool this can be cheaply had and the internals to be very cheaply made as you see on the Left Sparrow's has a twenty dollar version and again reef recon what are you guys doing it's sixty bucks yeah $59 metal rods cost about four to five dollars here is a four foot 3 foot I don't know how long it is metal rod like I said the recipe for this and it's enough it needs to be thick but not too thick to where it can't fit through a

gap in a door that utilizes a crash bar 3/16 is too flexible unfortunately I ran out to Home Depot and this is 3/16 so it's the only kind ahead you want something wide enough that can fit through a gap in the door or through a gap you can make even wider and again some minor upper body strength or the premium version use plastidip on the tips to not scratch the clients stuff and you can also provide a better grip with that as well or add a handle like the Recon one looks like a paint roller anyway all right so let's make this

there I made it has anybody ever used one of these before has anyone known about these each you guys in the back so this is a fairly simple tool of a very simple design of this tool I've used it a number of times we can even get even fancier let's bend this back into a somewhat normal shape and we can kind of instead of a what we had we can kind of emulate what Sparrow is made and do something like this so we can get the crash the other type of crash bar and Bend this thing it can be pretty much been to any shape as long as you have the muscle strength which I apparently don't have you know

like this like this it's fine whatever it works nobody read that so how this Tool Works another legitimate tool bypass tool used for them is not just penetration testers and locksmiths um a lot of law enforcement and emergency services use them as well so here's a video of a fire rescue using it there's a cane shape to bypass um to bypass a crash bar sorry I don't feel like I'm talking to the mic enough there you go and as you can see he pretty much utilized it the same exact thing I just showed you guys why is this so effective is because it's pretty prolific has anyone been to a client site and eats seen them use a

crash bar to exit you just push it and it goes out umm there's even capacitive ones you know to get around that if it's a crash bar with capacitive touch where you can't push it unless it has some sort of current running through it you can also run a piece of copper wire around the crash bar and then touch the copper wire so that it conducts yeah it's pretty you can get kind of creative with it so what happens when you don't have room to maneuver these tools and to the pump wedge so everyone's here kind of heard of pop lock right seen their little cars driving around they're cheap they're horrible for your cards so they

can be had for relatively cheap from Amazon search a Swedish made pump air wedge I mean pump air wedge I swear it's not mine I think this applies to actually kind of improv this was more expensive than buying one outright from Amazon Prime yeah I've 17 bucks for the harp blood pressure cuff this one I'm supposed to have fire because I was going to light stuff on fire to melt it but I turned out I didn't need it I'm also gonna be cutting metal on this one so we need to utilize our gloves so the recipe for that is blood pressure cuff and something stiff in this case we are using gratuitous eyebrow illegal in this case

we're using a piece of sheet metal and I'm just gonna kind of roughly cut this and this is kind of hard to cut with this type of tool because it kinda tends to curve I'm gonna make it about this big and I'm really gonna try enough to cut myself so you guys can watch me bleed profusely does anybody worked with metal like this before has anybody cut themselves with metal like this before yeah that's what did you wear gloves when you cut yourself

I kind of have default safety goggles so it's alright I'm not gonna stay on this down for the sake of time but essentially what I got here is the blood pressure cuff and a piece of metal and then to make this work I'm just gonna fold the blood pressure cuff over the piece of metal and now we have an air wedge work you just you just kind of pump it like you would a blood pressure cuff does anyone know know actually how to use one of these I don't think I've I'm not a trained doctor so I don't know how to actually let's try to see if we can medic use it on this door and get

our tool back out see if we can make this work this is why I need something stiff because it kind of gets caught yeah it's not budging cool that's the use case for this it just didn't happen to work in this instance like I said I think me had I mean I didn't bother searching Amazon for the actual product until yesterday and I felt kind of stupid making this slide but if you can't get this on prior to wherever you're going then this kind of works for you yeah said why should we make something I spent more money on than the commercial version of loitering tools so I'm assuming everybody's pretty familiar with loading tools right

sparrows makes a really great one this guy you've all kind of seen this guy before right has anyone not seen this cool couple hands cool does anyone not knows what this does well more people didn't raise their hands so what this is is this bypasses doors that are mounted incorrectly the latch for the door specifically a lot of times you can reach past the latch and just kind of open up have you ever used a credit card to break into right same kind of concept the office shelf tools work great however these are not always considered tsa friendly because it kind of you know looks like I could schenk somebody with this but like I said in

the first bullet point this is one of the easiest tools to improvise off the shelf tools work great but cheap and looks threatening to the TSA you can make them out of anything really a credit card or room key some sheet metal I actually have some that I made I prepared in advance it's like a cooking show put it in the oven and pop it back out and we're good to go here's to that I just made randomly I mean that a sheet metal they look like crap but they work hard plastic from shitty hotel menus do not disturb hotel signs painter tools so this works is a pretty great lighting tool as you can

see works kind of always Ethernet cable in various lengths of stiff wire bra underwire do anything honest know what this looks like you know have you ever seen bran underwire before one guy cool so this is actually a pretty versatile product you know if you have a lady in your life or ladies these are actually pretty handy for making physical security tools the lucky number seven which I thought I had those but I think I left those at home and then numbers three at number five also worked pretty great so here's somebody using Ethernet cable to bypass yes house numbers and I have a video in a second that I'll show you I'm trying to look at

the screen and direct my mouse at the same time it's not working here's uh does everybody know who Rance is there's a video of Rance using Ethernet wire to Lloyd a door with the piece of metal blocking it also Kimmy's bra under wires can be used in the same way to kind of just snake down around you get pulled through and then the number five so this is a example of this what I've noticed lately is that these are actually kind of hard to procure thin enough again ace came to the rescue with this with the number five what makes number five work so great is it actually works pretty good as a loading tool and it can also

be used to shove sometimes when the latch on the door is mounted the wrong way you can just push something through and that causes the latch to the track and you can open the door number Seven's work okay it depends if it's curved or not if it's straight it might not always work the ones that I have are just slanted weird so it just doesn't connect like I said you just have to go to hardware stores and play like I said some pre-made and I can make one right now do you guys want to see me make one out of sheet metal and try not to cut myself cool we'll do this one again remember your handy dandy gloves

yes question as it has this different from like shim this is the same as ischium it's pretty much the same as a shim it's a chimp it has more of it like it's a type of shim right so like shims can be used for various things like shimming certain locks that have defects in the locks while shhhhh I'm gonna show you guys how to make a master lock 175 bypass in like 30 seconds as well so again getting our handy dandy sheet metal out again and this is not gonna be exact because I'm under pressure time and otherwise so we're gonna cut one roughly the length we need then I'm gonna look at my reference pieces and then cut some out

I'm just gonna fold this over because I don't want to cut this part

and then turn out the best but when you're doing this kind of stuff you're sitting in your hotel room on an engagement you just kind of have a lot of time on your hands anyway there we go very rudimentary shim it sucks it's not very good because you know I'm distracted by talking to you guys and trying to present at the same time but there we go very much it doesn't look like the commercial one doesn't look like one of my best efforts for my pre-made ones but it'll work at a pinch if I actually had more time to sit down and work it out I'd actually sit and work it out where it doesn't look great

but it is so I have to defend this I finally learned the proper phrase for this how to properly install a latch on the door so you can either mount it correctly you know you don't want to have it so that the curved part is pointed towards the outside of the door and also you use the deadlock latch properly it's anybody familiar with what a dead latches go a couple people a dead light is that little itty-bitty piece that slides back and forth on a latch on their door now what those are supposed to do is when they're pushed down it causes the latch not to be able to move unless you have the key in the UM market

nine times out of ten nobody installs the lock correctly so that deadlock flash is not engaged basically the the strike plate the part where it touches the door and the latch actually enters into the door it needs to have a little tab to push that into and not a lot of people use that lock picks so has anybody made lock picks before from scratch quite a few people does anybody lurk on our lock picking at all and read it a couple of people it's one of their favorite hobbies just I got too excited couldn't wait for my pigs to get here so I made a lock pick and I picked my first lock that's a pretty common one so I'm

gonna start out you can be also be improvise from a very variety of materials windshield wiper blades do you guys know that there's actually metal inside a windshield wiper blades kind of look like this I literally fish this out of a trash can in advance auto bobby pins which actually worked pretty great well here's the number five bobby pins which I'm sure if you have a lady in your life there's 80 million of these sitting around your house and they seem to reproduce somehow and bra underwear again and these groovy made pretty quickly without a lot of work so I said this slide is washed free wig lock picks out of literal garbage so I'm

gonna go ahead and ever happened what does windshield wiper blade see if I can cut it with this tool if not all just bend you know so what's cool about when shield wiper blades is you bend it back and forth enough it will eventually just snap magically we have tension wrench I mean it's not perfect but it works here we can make a smaller one on the other side now we got a double-sided tension wrench that's it same thing with bran under wires so we can make a tension wrench or we can even make a bogotá these actually have a couple example one this is another one where I have the example ahead of time I'm not gonna

spend the time doing it cool no the tension wrench or underwire has anybody done that before underwear or yeah we'll have a couple people cool let's see what else we got okay so I've got a couple of pre-made Charlie made boga toes out of bran to wear I don't know if you guys can see this I don't can everybody see this okay if you want to see you later you can come up here's a bucket on me another bra underwear and then a slight weird sort of diamond break and here's a blank if anybody wants the blank later so does anybody have any questions about that yes

ding-ding-ding how am i doing on time am i rushing through this in regards to the bra underwire are they all the same size or do you recommend a specific cut size

[Music] so I'm not commenting on that most of these are our source for my wife and I'm not going to expose any PII in that regard what was that research is ongoing yes yes yes and I imagined the support of the cup size the thinner the wire is maybe I don't know I don't go around bra stores and start looking through to see what underwire it looks like it's just I imagine the smaller the cup size the thinner the underwire and it can work for different techniques I imagine she's shaking her head though do we have any non boob related questions do you have a question back there I can repeat the questions to if I I'm assuming you're

suggesting this in the context of like salvaging stuff in an emergency do you know if like buying actual spring steel or buying when shield wiper blades how does that compared to like obtaining bras somehow in terms of cost I mean I don't know the pricing bras I literally was walking around my apartment complex with my dog and I found a bra underwire lying on the ground so I can't really speak to the pricing options of bras and the economics of it you can you can literally go like any time it's raining out at any point and any day you can go to your nearest Auto Zone or whatever auto parts supply store and you'll see a

trash can full of windshield wiper blades and if you go to like a dollar store you can find two dollar windshield wiper blades I can use the substitute that kind of stuff this goes first hacksaw blades work pretty good too but you have to have you kind of it's hard to do by hand 100% you kind of need a dremel for that you could do it by hand but the likelihood of lacerating your hand gets more higher I've had a lot of success using the clip from a uniball brand pen like the metal Clips yeah those you bend those down they turn immediately new attention runs yes those are pretty cool to what he's talking

about is the Pens they sometime have these little metal clips that kind of are just shaped like a tension wrench or shaped like a sort of like a tension wrench and just bend it back to look like a tension wrench can everyone hear me okay yes file this is this is pretty large that's why I recommend the multi-tool and again I lost my multi-tool so like I said part of the multi-tool is played by the file umpires but a multi-tool will have usually some sort of file on it some works everyday they don't but they can be had for relatively cheap if you find the right places yeah I'd own the reason I don't have one is because Home Depot let me

down yet again and there were 40 bucks for a multi-tool any other questions and I'm related or otherwise yes yes oh this is a live stream hi hi twitch raise your doggers locks Jim's Dakota tools again easily made and they can be had for cheap but they're not very durable if I had a dollar for every quick disco door tool that a student of mine broke I'd have more quick decoder tools they're the ones I really like are made by sparrows but they're very thin and a lot of my students tend to just shove them into the little master lock 170 and bend it real quick and snap in half humor [ __ ] recipe with blah blah words hard so thin

but not very wide metal soda beer cans can work if you like to live dangerously anti-theft tags from physical copies of DVDs if they still sell those in stores retail so watch me make some shims and I'm gonna make some shims out of this piece of metal in particular this is a cable time you know at a metal I picked this up at Harbor Freight and unfortunately I don't have a master lock 175 to show you but I guarantee the guys outside do but basically you cut it thin enough so that I can enter the 175 and then you cut it short enough to be able to manipulate it there you go there it is that's all she

wrote it's very simple thank you thank you for the unenthusiastic yay I appreciate that and then to you know doll it up a little bit so you don't cut your fingers you know get some electrical tape and make it look all edgy and black what I do shrink wrap but I don't have a lighter on me so here my water I'll see me play with fire and metal all right yeah sure why not [ __ ] it this is some sort of there we go so yeah here's some shrink wrap has anybody not used shrink wrap cool everybody's used to hang crap there we go we got some shrink wrap on here and it's protecting our precious precious

fingers out there we go it's protected it's actually pretty cool in here how do threads work there we go now we got a shrink wraps quick decoder tool if anybody wants that after they can have it canned air so this one I was going to show this but it's pretty well known has anybody ever used can air know about this trick does anybody not know about this trigger cool so this is a bypass for infrared sensors I was going to do this but the infrared sensor I picked up was not actually an infrared sensor thank you Harbor Freight so I'm actually surprised to see so many hands but this trick is actually pretty widely publicized but let me just show

you a video of it real quick and then just my buddy Jess from the earlier videos demonstrating this he's taking a piece of thing of canned air turning it upside down and tricking the motion sensor into thinking he's a real person where she is a real person but he's also a pen tester which means he has no soul anymore you can also use your cigarette you know you could vape blow some mad clouds vape live cloud chasing Robo blow job DV and I was also famously done this with whisky at a bank hashtag broke into a bank with whisky has anyone not seen that has anyone seen that tweet yeah it's pretty cool pretty awesome anyone any questions does anyone

have ideas gentlemen back wait okay so your friend just demonstrated that trick with a cage door yes so does it work with a physical door it doesn't work with other approach that so it really does depend it's you got to kind of figure out how to get the straw for the canned air through the door if that's not possible then you kind of got to think through other stuff a lot of times they kind of have a lip on it and that may be enough if you turn the camera upside down and spray for long enough to get through that air current whatever you can also like I unsuccessfully did try to use a bump

tool a wedge air pump to kind of pry it to make more of a gap you can probably tack it from the side you can maybe try to get it underneath another trick for that too is to use hand warmers so take a piece of metal rod which I happen to really like metal rods I guess take a piece of metal rod with a hand warmer smack it to warm it up stick it under the door and just wave it around until the sensor sees it and thinks it's real yeah yes the alternative to a hand warmer the improvised alternative is if you're in a facility that happens to have employee microwaves and any sort of

cardboard one piece of nice stiff cardboard the other that you've wet down in the microwave slides underneath the door assuming you have the gap under the door that works great right also the key part of that is wet the cardboard do not put dry cardboard in a microwave remember the sponge thing when they said you can sanitize your sponge by putting in the microwave yeah you're supposed to wet it first yes again could you also use the lighter to warm up the end of your your your ride there and wave that around you could I guess I haven't tried it I imagine the surface area of the rod is too small for it to be seen by the

sensor I mean with the thick enough rod I'm sure I'm sure that could work out yes she's stick with the microphone this is this gentleman here you could also damage the carpet he's correct okay so I saw the video and I guess I didn't quite understand what was happening there for the canned air with the canned air I can see if it was heat and you're going for a heat sensor like you were describing direct deeper well the canned air is generally colder than air not sure warmer what what that does particularly for that IR sensor I don't remember the actual reason for it there's a good reason for at night I know it but I

can't think of it out of the ether of my head right now but basically what it's doing is it's putting particles in front of the IR sensor to trick it into thinking there's an actual person there it's movement and the particles simulate that movement for the heat sensing ones as well that's why the other like the pod the cardboard wet cardboard under the door and the hand warmer thing work because it also needs movement and and the heat as well but the particles are thick enough in the canned air to simulate that the open gate is not a good use case for that sort of thing it's better if you're more blocked off and you have a limited

access to the other side of the door yes

so these sensors do they all work on hitting a threshold of some value or some just differences like I see change I don't really care if I was really cold to really hot yes depends on the sensor and the manufacturer the one that I picked up that said it was an IR just sent his change it weirdly enough the the sensor that I had the the canned air and the e-cigarette bait didn't work with it but movement did of any way shape or form so maybe if the canned air makes it really cold and then it warms back up that could be a - that could be sensing it - I'm not sure I haven't done a scientific

study on that I think that is something worth investigating that's a good point this guy okay number one ir sensor door question actually have a couple questions but like the main one how do you defeat a door with IR sensors it has lateral sensors in term and and in top on top of the vertical ones right because what your what your punking out is the vertical sensor behind the door but some more secure doors have a sensor as you walk through it to make sure that the order of operations is correct you know I mean so you can get the door to open but if you walk through it the wrong way when it's been initiated from

the other side it'll ring an alarm have you ever had it if you that kind of thing I've never been in that kind of situation but they have them for return styles - it's wonderful turnstiles yeah yeah you know like the old trick for like putting an umbrella in front of an IR turnstile yes yeah yeah so they have order of operation sensors to make sure that if even if you get to open if you come instead of going out you're screwed I haven't seen you at the guys in the back that raised their hands for everything - have you ever seen that

yeah I imagine that's that's what it is to stop that and then other bypass techniques to get past that IR sensor but I'm sorry yeah right yeah photoelectric so I I just have a couple questions you can get to these after you filled all the IR questions I was just curious about couple things number one have you ever tried to make weight for weight for pics with a metal have you been successful with that and number two have you ever tried enhancing your door opening techniques with like a dental borescope or anything like that explainer celsa no to the second question I've never used a dental borescope for anything for the first question I mean I've made ball picks

which are wafer picks at home those are just kind of your generic wafer lock picks I've never made like any of the jigglers or anything for those they're a little more precise than me cutting with the true metal cutting tool and using cheap sheet metal to do it I have access to a laser cutter and that would work pretty well for making that kind of stuff just like it would work for making picks or anything like that but um yeah I don't think I've ever attempted that or even thought that um fun did anyone else have a question well cool thank you guys for coming on my talk I really appreciate you here [Applause]