Domain Protection - How We Protect Our Customers - Martin Clarke

[music]

[music]

[applause]

[applause] [music]

[applause]

[applause] >> I may have made that up. Put your hands up if you work for one of our fault centers. >> [laughter] >> Keep your hands up if you've got your corporate credit card with you. It's not looking good, people. Okay. >> [laughter] >> For those of you who are expecting me to just put up some slides and read contents off them, my name is Martin Hart. I work for Aviva, and I'm here to talk to you about domain protection, how we protect our customers and ourselves. But first of all, let's talk about me. I started my career back in 1987 working for the then TSB Bank. In 1995, TSB Bank merged with Lloyds Bank to become Lloyds TSB. And at this

point, I moved into IT, into IT service desk, and then into IT service management. In 2008, Lloyds TSB together with the British Heart Foundation became Lloyds Banking Group. And there I stayed until 2017 until I retired. I know, I don't look old enough. I then got a job working for Argos, driving a van, delivering Christmas to the people of Bristol. I absolutely loved it. But then decided I need to get a a full-time job. And that's when I joined Aviva in 2019 in IT vendor management, and in 2020 I moved into cyber security. And this is how I ended up here. So, let's talk about my cyber qualifications okay? I just want to give you a few seconds

just to absorb this slide. I have absolutely none. So, this presentation does come with a health warning. But I've not got a clue what it is. Okay, so let's talk about Aviva. Aviva started in 1696 as a Hand in Hand Society offering protection and insurance against fire. And back in And back in the not 1696, if you had a fire, we would come along very elegantly dressed with an ornamental axe and a stick. And you'd stand in your garden and watch your house burn down. By 1818, we become the Norwich Union. And by this time we invented water. This time we would come along still very elegantly dressed with our ornamental axes. And rather than leaving with the

hook, we didn't need the hook. So, we get out our stick. But we did have a fire engine. But I say a fire engine, it's more like a bucket of water on wheels. >> [clears throat] >> But only two wheels. By 1964, we got our first mainframe. >> [laughter] >> And back in 1964, buying a mainframe was a bit like buying furniture at IKEA today. You have to build it yourself. And this is them building it. Obviously, these two guys here are struggling with the instructions. This guy here, I guarantee one of you will end up looking like that tonight after you've drunk at the bar. Okay? However, they did manage to build it. Okay? So, what did they do with it?

>> [screaming] >> We make music. This is a recording of that mainframe. Okay? Put that in 1964. [music] This goes on for 29 minutes. Hopefully, there'll be time for questions at the end. Of course, technology moves on. Okay? Things get smaller and branding becomes important. So, we've got it upgraded. Okay? I wouldn't subject you to that. But, this is us today, selling insurance, protection, pensions um across a number of different brands in a number of different countries, mainly the UK, Canada, and Ireland. So, let's talk about the main naming system DNS. Well, the internet is made up of lots of infrastructure bound together by internet protocol, IP addresses. So, if you want to go to

the Beehive's website, what you want to do is go to 185.230.63.171 or 185.230.63.107 or 185.230.63.186. However, when the internet was invented, it was deemed it was too difficult for people to remember numbers. Which is strange, really, cuz we've been doing it for years with our telephone system. Before the invention of mobile phones, if you wanted to speak to someone on the phone, you had to dial their number, their telephone number, and dial it in. However, with the internet, we weren't capable of doing that. So, that's why then DNS was developed. And basically, it acts like your telephone directory in your mobile phone. You type something meaningful into your browser, in this case beehivebristol.org.uk. Okay? You okay? And that goes off to

DNS. It tells you what the IP addresses are. And hey presto, you end up at the website that you want. But it also doesn't just cover websites, file transfers, anything going over the internet, including emails. Okay? It's DNS which tells that email where to go. So if anyone wants to do a strongly worded email of complaint to this site about this presentation, it's DNS which tells your email where to go. Obviously, that will come through to me eventually, and I will tell you where to go. The main country is Anguilla. >> [music] >> Because because I want to remember names. Okay? We need to remember [music] that. Okay. So we need to look after the DNS

for the various different domains that we look at. Here are just some of them. We have either .com, hopefully happy.com, uh you'll recognize some of them. We also maintain the DNS for some domains which have similar spellings to them. For example, a one instead of the R. Lowercase L instead of the I. Two A's, two I's, etc. Ones that could be used but less than three. Okay? We've also got the graph geographical um extensions. So for example, AT is Austria. .fr France, .pl Poland. Anybody recognize this face? Someone knocked it there. Anguilla. Okay? Lovely island. 15 uh about 15 >> [laughter] >> about 35 square miles. Population about 15,000. Fantastic food. White sands, tropical sea.

Okay? The other really interesting thing about Anguilla is it's making an absolute fortune selling domain names at the moment. And the reason that is precisely. >> [clears throat] >> For Anguilla. We have that one. Aviva is parked. >> [laughter] >> We have that one as well. Aviva's Now, you know what you're thinking, okay? I'm not taking from you anymore. Basically, if you take the most vulgar expletive, it's really going to be hard. And I know you're all doing this now, okay? Stick Aviva at the beginning of it, at the end of it, and that's how you got UK or dot com. You can't possibly do that. So, normally, I get members of the audience to shout out business that they

think is available. However, it gets very messy, and then I realized after about half an hour, you just swearing at me. So, I'm not going to do that at the moment. However, when I was doing this, I was thinking we have lots of derogatory domain names. So, when I'm in court, Aviva is fantastic doctor.uk. Okay. So, all in all, the amount of domains or 5,800 domain names. >> [clears throat] >> And that was from a time where if you wanted to stop someone um using a domain name against you or maliciously or fraudulently, what you have to do is fill out and file before naked. However, you don't need to do that now. Cuz we've got tools in place which can

scan the internet looking for us for some domain names that are there. Cuz we know we know the domain names that are there, and we know our logos. So, we we employ a tool which is called Brand Protection Engine by CSC. There are lots of them out there, and I'm not going to tell you what a particular tool is, okay? And what it does, it scans the internet looking for domain names registered similar to Aviva or websites with our logos on. And here's an example of what it finds, okay? This is the prime example of domain squatting. Somebody is registering a Viva domain. Probably taking a tenner or a twenty pound ticket. They're offering it for sale for

275,000 US dollars. It's quite a markup on it. However, it's not something we're worried about. We're not going to use criminal or illegal money here. We're not worried about it. We don't need the domain. And if someone buys it and starts using it maliciously against us, we can take action against them. >> And in the middle email address >> Okay. This story is getting interesting. Counterfeit India, counterfeit filter, and a few responses in there. And it's called Aviva India. Well, we purchased Aviva India domain in the UK about three years ago when we first bought this new company. Because what we wanted to do is buy that domain >> [music] >> before anyone else bought it. Otherwise,

it'd be quite important, correct? So, on the day it was released, we did see lots of people going out and buying domains with Aviva in the name. >> [music] >> And the winner again. But again, for a while but we're not overly concerned about it. However, whoever went out and bought this one was absolute genius. They'll make a fortune. So, we get our information from our brand protection engine. We also get information from our keeping you safe team. And that is the team that members of the public, what they can do, they can go on the If they see something suspicious, so we see the phishing email etc. >> [clears throat] >> What they can do is go on our website

and report it to us. And that comes through to us. And we can take a look at that and investigate it. And if it's malicious or what we're thinking of, right, we can take action against it. We take action against it through the CSI team who are our partners in the USA. So, they're a corporate version of going bankrupt in this case. And here are some examples of what we find. So, this is our Aviva Investors.com. Okay? This is welcome. Practicing. Can I just check? Do you work for Aviva Investors? I know you've got corporate credit card facilities. Yeah. Okay, this is our genuine website, okay? AvivaInvestors.com. However, what we did discover was AvivaInvestors-Ireland.com. This is fake,

okay? Using our logo, everything is the same as Aviva. So, then what happened? They come back with AvivaInvestors-Worldwide.com. So, what we do is take that one down. So, they come back with AvivaInvestors-Retail.com, okay? This one managed to get a nice glossy brochure for it, but we were able to get that taken down. And then they came back with AvivaInvestors-Capital.com. Managed to find an African with this one as well, okay? But we got that disabled. The story behind this one is is member of the public that have been dealing with this website okay? And this person wanted to make an investment, so they sent 900 pounds to them. And partway through that transaction, they started to call their emails

started to get delivered. That's because we got the domain taken down. They managed to get hold of the genuine of Aviva Investors, and we were able to get the scam sent back. It was talking about the money. However, what we did find was that 900 pounds was just a tester. They just had to send 100 pounds Big Pass Hyper Market.com, okay? This site, we didn't discover it through our monitoring. It doesn't contain our logos. The domain doesn't have our name in it. We came aware of it through the City Safety. Well, a member of the public, Mr. Witham, he'd invested 4 and 1/2 thousand pounds with the in- in crypto investor, okay? He was just about to invest another 20

thousand pounds, but he thought he'd check with them to make sure that they were legitimate. Why you would ask them if they were legitimate, I'm not quite sure if they're going to answer that. You know, the first search. Um however, what they did destroy was the only investment that he made was backed up by Aviva Investment Policy. Okay, guarantee this investment. And here is that policy. And what it basically says is if you invest with the company, if you lose less than 1% of your investment, we'll just top up your investment to where it should be. More than 1%, we'll pay any losses directly to your bank account. It ain't going to happen, okay? This is false. But using that

evidence, we were able to get that website disabled. After we did that, okay, we did have a look at um the pilot. And here are some of the reviews we found. This is a 100% scam. They groomed me over a period of 3 months. They lost 13 and 1/2 thousand pounds. Stay away. BitCash Market is fake. Fake accounts, fake people, fake names, fake money. They lost 10 thousand pounds. I've been really stupid. I thought I was scam aware until I came across BitCash Market. I have lost 42K and taken out 28K in loan. You're all going to pay back. An absolute scam. They scammed my friend's dad for 38 thousand pounds. He's contemplating suicide. Not really much else to say.

Right, anybody recognize this chap? That [laughter] doesn't surprise me, okay? This is Adam Easter. He works in our crypto graphic team, okay? I would not trust him as far as I could throw him. And that's because I think he's something to do with Aviva Income funding and that's all gone. Okay? It's a little bit over here Aviva. It brushed right okay, but if you scroll down the page, what you find is our head office address there. Okay? And a certificate of the incorporation. That certificate of the incorporation is just in backing of the companies tells you it is a public document. Okay? Nothing to do with us, but we did get it managed to get it disabled.

Make Gateway Mega Lending Investors at lsi.com. Contact them. The story behind this one is a member of public. They were looking for investment in their bioenergy company. Okay? So, they went to this company and they secured 34 million euros worth of investment from Aviva. And here is a certificate from Aviva. Okay? This is completely fake. Okay? Very often they do give us a few clues. So, if you look at the how the amount is written, it's 34 million Doesn't make sense. I think that should be that second million should be a thousand. However, it's fake. Okay? But what the customer did get, okay, is a letter with a fee for securing that lending for just under for just under 4.5

million pounds. So, they paid that. Okay? And then there was in order to release the money, there was a further fee of just under 3,000 US dollars. So, they paid that. Okay? The money is just about to be released and they contact up down the Spanish Ministry of Justice. Because of the money to be transaction, there's Spanish tax payable on it. 15,000 just under 15,000 dollars. At this point, remember the public contract and ask to see if this was legitimate or not. Um unfortunately, we had to say no, it wasn't. Okay? But again, using that evidence, this website no longer exists. >> [music] >> The main factor is that

Okay. Here's another energy company, okay? In this case, they're not necessarily acting maliciously, okay? But, they're using our logo um without our permission. So, they sell um energy, okay? And you can see their logo The logo is at the bottom. We have never dealt with this company before, okay? What we wouldn't necessarily do in this instance is take the phone, cuz it's a legitimate company. There could be um legal implications. So, what we do in this case is we got a legal team to file cease desist effectively. Which basically says, "You're using our logo. It's an infringement of our trademark property." And in this case, they just they've got it removed. Okay. avivaintshares.online This is the website for Aviva

International shares, okay? We do not deal in in the shares in this manner, okay? If you If you buy or sell shares with this company, okay? Guaranteed you would not receive your shares and you would lose your money, okay? So, we got that website taken down. What they did do is bring it back in avivaints, and there's an e, shares.online. We got that one taken down. They brought it back with avivaintershares.online. At this point, we thought we were going to spam the whole world international. However, they did give up at this point. nwai-tech.com. Okay, invest with this company and your money is protected by the Aviva PLC Insurance Company Financial Services Compensation Scheme. It doesn't even exist. You will lose

your money. But, this site is known to sell it. Okay. Here is a life certificate. It's like a death certificate for Alan Strang okay? The certificate is fake. Now we cannot tell you whether Alan Strang is a real person or not okay? But what I can tell you if he is a real person, he's dead. You want to know why Alan Strang is dead? Because here's his death certificate. He died back in 20 2012 okay? He suffered a heart attack heart attack probably caused an accident. Now I'm no medical expert however I don't consider a heart attack to be an accident. It's strange and also if you're going to fake a death certificate please don't use a party in section to

tell us that. A little bit more subtlety than that. But what we do get then is a letter from Viking Douglas Solicitors to a member of the public who also shares the same surname. That solicitor is fake. He doesn't exist. He's not registered with the law society okay? Okay. My name is Chris Van Channing I am a partner at Viking Douglas Solicitors Canada. It may surprise you to receive this letter from me since there has been no previous correspondence between us. There is an unclaimed permanent life insurance policy held by our deceased client. It goes on and to say therefore I ask you to consent to be in partnership with me for the payment of this policy benefit

in view of the fact you share the same last name and the nationality with the deceased. They don't even bother to make out that they're related to them okay? Um [snorts] if you permit me to add the name to the policy all proceeds will be processed on your behalf. I wish to point out that I want 10% of this money to be shared among charity organizations. Well the remaining 90% will keep to ourselves. Okay. They said it's 100% risk-free. Yeah right. Um If member of the public that they engaged with them, what they would have been or something fees and recent funds etc. Um and that's how they would have gotten that and that's how they would have gotten

their money. This is their website here. >> [clears throat] >> Okay. However, they cannot spell. Okay. I think there's anyone else interested. >> [laughter] >> Okay. For those of you who are expecting lots of MI and data in this presentation, okay, get ready. This is our death chart. Okay. What it shows along the bottom is the daily departed versus the number of deaths. The red line represents the Okay. A person has died in their life. Now, you expect to make that to be what? And what you can see is that only five people died once. Stepping in James twice, okay. You're not Oliver, you're still in well, okay. He's only died once. >> [clears throat]

>> Okay. If that's you, Oliver, hello. The green line represents the death rate hopefully in this room, which I've set at zero. So, if anybody has died, please think of my statistics, okay. Okay. Um there are a number of um websites we've taken down in this manner. These are all fake and these two websites. Skies Unlimited Invest.com. Okay, we picked this one up. Nice flashy building where our label front bit. Initially, we thought perhaps it might be a legitimate company, so we sent them a cease and desist letter. We actually sent it in print and they didn't respond. So, we thought, okay, they're doing a good job, we'll go to the protector. However, we should have realized the

text when we looked at the address on our street view. I looked at that because what's he shows this nice massive building here, okay? Our street view.

Cost money. You got my potato, okay? >> [music] >> The main guy is still going, right? It's Christmas. >> [music] >> Okay. Doing a lot more in social media, right? Last few weeks, we've been battling these people here, okay? Taking down a number of Facebook page, social media accounts across TikTok, X, YouTube etc. Nothing. Our logo plastered all over it. Nothing to do with us.

I think no [laughter] thanks to calling violence violence in social media.

Nothing to do with us, okay? Anybody want a job?

Anybody want a job? >> We're hiring a customer service email assistant to work with you for that fixed salary of 80,000 a month plus commission. No experience, no problem. We provide professional training and opportunities for career growth. And he has good communication skills. Are responsible and eager to learn. We'd love to hear from you. Apply now and start your journey with us today. Please contact us on Telegram using this email at aviva.com. >> So the guys, emails and me, okay? Okay. It's strange that you need to contact me by telephone. Right. Okay. This is our website back from 1996. Okay? Obviously, brands was very important then because I was a If anyone has said X-Factor, okay,

that's X-Factor. Okay. Okay. This bit at the top, okay? That's animated. Okay? I particularly like the way the surfer comes in off and with the sea onto the beach and we don't quite know what to do with him then. So, he just continues through the village, okay? Circumnavigates the whole world and then comes back. However, if you're thinking that was crap okay? Back in 1996 at the Macromedia European Developers Conference in Amsterdam, okay? >> [laughter] >> That won the best Shockwave technology site in Europe. So, if you're thinking that was crap, think what everything else was. >> [laughter] >> Now, clearly, wearing a white shirt and a tie was fashionable then. Who the hell would wear a white shirt

and a tie to work these days? >> [laughter] >> Okay. It's like a It's It's like a 1994 Volkswagen Lupo. Shockwave. >> [laughter] >> Okay, this is our website today, okay? aviva.com, Okay? What we have here is avivatrust.net. Okay? Completely bankrupt. We've got that one taken down. And hey presto, there's also avivatrustlimited.com as well. Well, there's not all doom and gloom in the domain lands. Sometimes you get emails like this. This is from Axel. He wants to buy aviva.com for 20 million dollars. So, I'm thinking, hmm. Anyone else want to buy it? Okay. [clears throat] However, 20 pounds in US dollars doesn't sound like much, especially when Jack, he's willing to pay 200 pounds in US

dollars for askme.com. And especially that Yoshi wants to buy aviva.com, and so does Karina. So, I'm thinking, oh, there's money to be made here. I'm going to hold off for at least half a million pounds. And you'll know whether I've managed to sell it because my colleagues sitting in front of Aviva, you'll find that your email doesn't work. For the rest of you, I'm going to send you a postcard from my luxury beach side cottage in Anguilla. The main presentation's going. You didn't quite know how to end it. >> [music] >> So, we ended it like this.

Just like that. Okay? Just like that. Okay? So, if you've enjoyed this presentation, okay, my name is Martin Carr, I work for Aviva, and I'm in domain management. Okay? If you haven't enjoyed this presentation, then my name IS ADAM EASTMOND. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. >> [applause]

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THAT, MARTIN. THAT WAS UM INFORMATIVE and but humorous as well. >> [laughter] >> Um we will have plenty of time for questions if anyone has one I would like to kick off. >> Oh. >> Yep. >> Okay, thank you. Was it a blue rolling paper? >> No. >> I don't know if I should ask that question. >> I am not sure. >> Sorry. I'm interested in the cost of >> Sorry? >> I'm interested in the cost of the company to protect the thing. >> Um

>> Oh, goodness. >> I don't want to get I don't want to have my money in there. Sensitive to this. But we do invest quite a bit in this. This is not cheap. However, um my view is that the industry I'm working in is not what it used to be. It's quite strange actually because a lot of what I talk about is definitely what we do. It's a lot of cyber security is protecting your own systems. What we do is protect our customers from what they do. At the end of the day, Aviva isn't going to hire an IT insurance company or anything like that. It'd be quite easy to hire a simple one. Why would we do

it? It's not going to help us. But uh yeah. Aviva invests quite happily in this. Not that I think it's expensive. >> Yeah, um how much strong uh is now going to be with the emergence of AI into running all these operations a little >> Yeah, it's it's it's I've not seen I've not seen much difference in our world with AI. However, I imagine it's people out there who just happily write stuff in the social media stuff. It's pretty It definitely makes it really easy for them to do it. And that's a problem I'm seeing in the social media. It used to be quite difficult. You know, type in my website, no one comes up. Type it again, no one

comes up. And then they get bored. And I appreciate that actually very often what we're doing is not stopping them. We're just making them better at being better at being better at doing different choices. With social media, it's that simple. That's what I think. I was looking at this doing something like this with social media, but I think we're up to about 10 12 different um different social media accounts in the space of four to two weeks. Issue of names. Got lots of questions. Can't get over this.

Um So [snorts] so yeah, it's it's it's it's So social media, we don't um we don't um get websites named for legal reasons. You look at contractual reasons. Because if you report it to the police, that can be a criminal offense etc. So actually good contractual reasons. So what happens here is if you were wanting to if you were a poster and you wanted to create a website, okay, what you have to do is go out and find a name. When you find that name, you uh register it on GoDaddy. So you get the name and you register it on GoDaddy. Well, both of these things is you buy your website, you sign a contract with

GoDaddy and register it. Register it with GoDaddy and um eventually there is you are not using the name for the name. Go to AWS or whatever hosting infrastructure. There's also something you know as well. So in effect, you then go to both the finder and the registrar and say in offense of this person is breaching your terms and your conditions. You need to cease that contract with them and take it down." Um at that point, we are in the hands of that registrar and that um provider, infrastructure [laughter] provider. They're customers are the first They're on their side. They get wanted time. So, it ranges, I would say, anywhere between You haven't taken down your

website You had it one of the worst three months to six months. There would be We are in the hands of other parties and um and they really do mean business. Sometimes they may be sending copies of this issue to your customers and they're sending this issue to legal departments and they say "You will not win this case." >> You've got one more, yeah. >> On that first the jurisdiction aspect, I just let just boom, um interact with you. I'm thinking of potentially they're using foreign IP addresses but um domain names. >> Yeah. >> Not something else or you know, they're I was just going to buy a >> Yeah. >> a company in Russia or they don't make

the domain available in the UK but it is available elsewhere in the world. Now, how do you go about those sorts of things when taking active actions or >> So, it it initially That's the first question that came to my head because actually it is a thought that they'll have to get them. It's a dot RU domain. It has to be again and the action taken is exactly actually minimal. Um on the plus side of that, generally speaking, if a member of public can get if you were directed to your website or Russian site. Um but if you were directed to Russia in the main idea, >> [cough] >> probably be very effective in the

country using it. It's always very sparse. Name machine. The choice of hackers and imposters. Okay, you want to buy a domain that is useful to you in a foreign country. They don't give you a >> Hi, yeah. Thanks for the talk. Really interesting. I can Thanks FOR THE FEEDBACK. YEAH, THANKS. ANY ANY QUESTION I HAD WAS AROUND, how do you sort of identify brand infringement on social media? Is there like a company that you use to fuel your like internal crawler or is it just through referrals? >> Yes, it's it's sexy. The system that we use is actually an agent that it it really scrolls the internet looking for logos. And actually it's really difficult for us because there

are there are lots of insurance brokers that actually sell our insurance product. So, when you sell our logos legitimately, so it can be really difficult working out whether somebody is using it legitimately or actually uh fooling the name. And one of the one of the things we is quite difficult is something called guest brokering. >> [clears throat] >> And these are like web brokers where they have to sell you a student college or sell your college on the company legitimately and pay a piece of paper. It works on it. They're not covered by any insurance. And they they don't particularly pick on us as opposed to any other insurance company. That's very good. And that tends to be on social media.

You see a lot of that. >> Okay, I think we've got time for one or two more questions. You've got one at the front here. >> Oh, right. >> First up. >> What's good balancing act that you kind of have to tie up between putting in defensive registrations in advance so that domains can't be abused versus waiting until the abuse happens and then being able to deal with it retrospectively and not having to kind of go for the how many domains that would never have been used? >> This is a master I had with people at top many times. If I if I had if I had a hundred go and buy this go and buy this domain and I said well

you can do but what happens to so if if if I'm thinking right I've got this really good scam. Okay, what I need to do is go out and buy a fevermarketing.com. Yeah. However, if I went to buy that um domain and uh it'd already been purchased by a fever I wouldn't do that. I'd just buy a fevermarketing.co.uk. Or if that was purchased so um it just goes up. There are about 16 1,600 different extensions at the moment. So if you wanted to if you wanted to secure and I did look at this once um where okay, let's go out and buy every single a fever.something. Okay? I mean it's got to be about quarter of a million pounds you could

have saved actually. Um it's Yeah, we cannot afford no company can afford to buy the internet. And what some of them were um say 10 pounds. Okay, some of them were really expensive. If it was a fever.hotels or any dot hotels um extension, we'll go and buy that one. 47 grand per year. And what you've got to bear in mind is again if you're a fraudster, you might go out and go and buy a fever.hotels or 47 grand naming, it actually the day after I buy it, you can't take it back. So, it it it it is a battle and I insist if if I had a pound for every time I could tell people,

>> [snorts] >> you can't buy the internet. You're not By buying the name, you're not solving the problem. You're just moving the mess to someone else.

What happens >> after the domain names have been seized, do they go back in the market? >> Exactly. This is the same This is This is the same thing. So, once you've got it taken back, once it's disabled, okay? People go out and say it's fraud. And people we need to own that domain name. However, you can't. Once this thing is disabled, the fraudster still owns that domain. The only way you can take ownership of that domain, okay, is to wait until it's deleted and then you can buy that domain. What you can do is [snorts] They I imagine what they do is you you buy the name for a year. So, you have a

choice to renew it or let it fall. If it If you let it fall, then it becomes available again. However, in most circumstances, what companies do is we we have a our system within So, if it finds the domain and there's nothing wrong with it, okay? It's not the end of it. What happens is it periodically keeps checking that domain. So, if it drops off in the last or two check, then um we know about it. And we then make the same decision, well, do we need to renew this domain or something like that. >> Let's just talk about one more thing before we finish up. Is it lost in the tunnel or is it locked

in a hole forever? >> I hope it's not lost in the tunnel because you never know. You may be able to get it back. >> I think we'll try again. >> Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully they just keep coming Hopefully they keep coming back. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There is definitely a new problem with the latest decision. >> Okay, can we please fight what's in row five now? >> [applause]