Say It to My Face: Effects of Communication Degradation

all right M hello everybody in the back row hello hello hi hi my name is Shannon hi Shannon hello everybody good I know right I'm I'm one of those I'm not I'm one of those girls that was taught in and beaten in school that if you get up in front of a room of people to speak you have to dress nicely that's what I get for going and getting my both my degrees and communication and so I it's like I have a paranoia if if I don't dress nicely then I'll get a bad grade so it's worse than so it's almost as bad as saying uh in where in my where my schools were so that's that's that's the

whole dress Nic thing it's not because I'm worried about not fitting in or I think I won't I just I can't I can't do it so it's a physical impossibility so for those of you who did see that I was joking I said somebody saw it said one of 63 slides and ran out there's slides on the backend that don't apply necessarily then I don't use so that's not necessarily I'm not going to subject you to all of that the topic is say it to my face effects of communication degradation anybody have any idea what any of that might mean anybody some people are shaking their heads anybody that hadn't already talked to me or heard me before know

what that might mean that what my husband's shaking into because we text we spend all our time texting or iming that we can't we're losing our skills okay what skills actual communication skills what do you mean by actual communication skills communication even over the telephone confence okay that is has and what do you think that might have to do with infos though you have to convey ideas and Concepts and get mut that was that information security hard social engineer somebody who can't communicate well or it's easier for somebody that can communicate well far slower okay so we're going to look a little bit into it and I will tell you now I'm a little disappointed in my

presentation I wanted to put a lot less of some things and a lot more of other things in it and excuses are like everyone has one everyone stinks so I have a lot of of reasons why there's some stuff in here that and some stuff isn't in here that I wanted to put in there but I will tell you that this is just the beginning of some research that I'm going to be doing that is going to go a lot further we're going to be doing studies and that's kind of like doctoral work almost into the effects of this and into the effects of communication degradation not only on what it does for and what it has to

security but what it's also doing in my own field and what it's doing just in general to other Generations Our Generations our children and what it could do in the future so I'm we tell a little bit about I would touch briefly on that and some of that is to start a series on I know you all know or most of you probably know Chris hat naggie or you heard of social engineering. org or human hacker or whatever but the series is going to start on there okay there are seven big seven my thesis in college graduate school was all about arguing that there was eight I wanted to add one more uh but that's not what this is

about there are Joy sadness or distress anger fear disgust contempt and surprise I'm telling you this because it's part of what you need to know and I'm going to give you a little quiz these are seven universally recognized facial expressions I've had people argue with me up it down drunk and sober that there's no possible way that they could be universally recognized there are people far smarter than I that have done the research over years and years and years years years years you get it I I don't even the research could be duplicated today I'm not sure that there's a tribe that exists anymore like the ones that they found back then that hasn't been exposed to some sort of

media like they found then the fact is is that when someone experiences true Joy true sadness or distress true anger true fear disgust contempt or surprise they show the same facial expressions in a range and that range has been Quantified recorded and marked and computer simulated all the way down to something called the facial action coding system done by Paul Ean and then it's been Quantified all the way down more into micro Expressions that you've probably heard of my favorite show all good shows that are too smart for normal people get cancelled lie to me love it sorry is based on Paul ean's research and that's what this was about facial AC C system so I want you

guys to guess not right now I'm tell you the answers at the end so if you have something that you can write on you can write a J or a s or a d or C just try to remember for later okay what do you think these facial expressions me and I'm throwing you easy so on the facial act coding system these would score between the F top two but I'm telling you most people think that they are great at interpreting facial expressions they think that they can spot a liar they think that they know what somebody else is thinking and our generation is much better at it than and one below us and then our

shoulder okay

might give you this should be easy you wouldn't see it for real that's all I'm going to subject you to for now okay so what is communication degradation so first you have to Define communication there's a whole there's whole volumes there's whole classes that argue to Define communication so I just dictionary easy the act and process of communicating fact of being communicated I didn't like that one but the imparting or exchanging of thoughts opinions or information by speech writing or signs that means talk to you could make gestures at you WR something to you or something that's imparted exchanged or transmitted okay that makes sense it's pretty basic level basically you get a message from me

whether I intended to send it or not but you reive some sort of message that we communicate it that make sense deg what is degradation it came from the word deg grade reduced in rank or position or reputation example sentence reduced in quality or value debased or vulgarized so communication degradation taking communication and reducing it reducing its rank reducing basically beating communication to death the actual purpose or the actual intended purposes of communication and eroding it away into something else does that make sense and something vandalized it doesn't look the same anymore that's what's happening and I know it says from CNN Jack caffy it had it has other sources this is just what you get for

now in 2010 they called it the year we stopped talking to each other because that was the year we started seeing the highest use of Twitter social Facebook all social media just Bloom and boom text messaging boom Ed boom basically we got this even more I had a joke and I couldn't find the picture last night to save my life and it just frustrated me to know in but it said why are we fearing the zombie apocalypse when it's already here it's a group of teenagers walking together and they're all this no one's talking to each other I was at a hair appointment the other day and two kids were there no one's talking to each

other they were texting each other girl got mad at whatever he texted and walked away the boy didn't seem to understand why she was bad he just sled in the chair and texted someone else they didn't look at each other or talk to each other I wanted to go do you understand why you can't you can't do communication this way the main reason that people use the internet right now is to communicate with other people but they completely bypass people so we want to talk to people but we just don't want to have to deal with people importance of communication communicate and you can not like communication forms the foundation of our society if you can think of something

else that does let me

know is there

anybody what can I mean we can't procreate without communication you can't trade goods without communication you can't do anything without communicating to each other in some way there is no social order no fun like you see there's there's no preservation of History without communication I know a lot of times liberal arts gets a bad rap we like to be J you like to joke about it my husband I live with the SK expert engineer back here he loves to go and this person says this and this person says this and the liberal arts person says anybody know would you like thank you friiz with that so that's always the joke it's okay to laugh communication

models so they get much more complex I'm going to show you just three I want you to take a little look a lot of times we think communication is just this I tell you hi my name is Shannon your name is Cena hi Cena but what goes into that is my communication skills my attitud the social system we live [Music] around and I can't even read that I'm sorry culture culture I don't have a glasses either and then that's all I get that's it the rest of this is it leaving me the message leaves just like you guys you write code right some of you write code some of you build stuff once you've done that it's out of

your hands that's your baby it's gone then it goes to maybe a hacker or a pentester or someone else who is going to take it and break it down now some people they take the message and they will I have to go here I can't read they will take the context of it they will take the elements of it the structure of it their own codes that's the message that's just the message then they take it through a channel how they heard it how they saw it did they touch it did they was it text did they did they taste it did they feel it and and now there's so much more into that too like I said my grad school

model looks like some sort of diagram of a pin blew up then the rece tries to decode the message once they re once the encoding happens then they're going to start decode it and this is just a simple decoding again communication attitude knowledge social system structure you have no control over those factors of theirs so it's like a pentester or a hacker a white hat or a black hat you don't know who gets your information you don't know who gets your code you don't know who gets what they're going to take it and they may beat it to death they may have a bad day and they may want to maliciously find every single thing that can wrong

with it call you and tell you that you're an idiot for building it and release it into who knows what before you have chance to fix it you didn't intend on anything bad happen you it but they didn't know that the population didn't know that I don't I me not intend on you getting a certain message when I say the words that come out of my mouth but I don't know what's in your life and I can't control how you receive the message I told a friend the other day he said someone got mad at me because I kept doing this during a conversation stroking his beard I said for all you know their dad

did that every time she got swapped around and he stopped he said I ever thought about that he said that's not my fault I said no it's not your fault either it's just is what it is we have to take it and say I have responsibility for my words and do the best I can next time with my communication here's another one you get idea you get an idea you try to inhib noise there allot stuff I showed you you're trying to encode it to send it the message gets transmitted there's external noise everywhere while you're trying to listen to the message like your friend talking to you or the fact that you're thinking about what you're going to do tonight or

that what are they doing out there you know I have ad awful I I I do that or I'm thinking about gosh you know his body language looks like he doesn't like this or two people have done there this is happening and this is happening and I shut that down while I'm trying to speak there's all kinds of things going on while we're trying to listen to messages then we try and then there's internal and semantic noise that's you talking to yourselves what you're the send are talking to themselves to and you try to decode a message it's just not we think it's communication is simple that's the problem that's what I'm trying to get across to you real

quick it's not it's complicated and annoyingly complicated and here's just a really easy one I thought you guys might understand too if something happens in the middle if your transmitter is working fine but the receiver has something wrong with it that's really not your your fault but you're message still isn't going to get there right or if something happens in the middle somebody goes and runs and does something in the middle or goes and runs back whatever once the message is sent it's sent that's the point and the problem is is that in our culture does anybody know how much of that message actually

veral how much 10 or less is veral you count paralinguistics which

is goes all the way down to 5 to seven is the rest of the message is nonverbal now think about that when you're reading an email text God forbid message boards Twitter and think about the effect of that when people remove trying or some people that's try to marry form communication face to screen Americans age 18 to 29 s received nearly 88 and this was a couple years ago 88 text messages a day compared to 17 phone calls now I will guarantee sorry my mouth is Dr I guarantee has gone up dramatically because between the time that the other two studies were done it jumped hugely I will guarantee that that 88 text messages per day is probably

doubled and that 17 phone calls per day has probably been cut in half the number Chang as we get older with the over number changes as we get older with the frequency of all communication declining that means you should don't talk to anyone as we get old that's not like I just go Grandma goes and just talks to my phone no isolation much but even in the 65 and over daily text messages were still eding 43 and then 32% of all respondents said they'd rather communicate by text and phone even with people that knew very well you know what I love to stand here and say because of what I do I'd rather call people on the phone or talk

to but I will say this I'd rather taunt them face to face I don't like phone calls I don't really like text messages I'd rather just talk to you that's why tomorrow or this week next week when I do a death con I'm doing social engineer and Capture the Flag the whole thing is The Learning Experience for me because tone man just manipulating on the telephone I can I I am a fan of when a scammer calls because I will troll them for as long as I can on a phone what I hate I don't I'm I I've never really tried telephone manipulation since I've been over 18 I used he's looking at I used to have

a a relationship with a telephone company in my younger where I would uh or I knew somebody did in their younger who were they were very good at uh somehow they would call from one house they were staying at and convinc them not to call their own home phone that they needed to charge every lus that's calling made to this other number but not call that number to verify and and then they could call the third party phone number and this went on for many years I have no idea how I got to the point to where this person didn't even have a third party to call I was I was it was me you don't know we

lay in bed at night I just think of things to come up with like enmy worthy scenes you know and to call the phone company with and and say happened and I had to do this and and it was amazing it really was I'd like to think that I've I've saved people and and heal system as a whole honestly it's been a benefit I'm sure because now they don't allow that and people can abuse that system so it's it's for the greater good and I've grown up to be the responsible person I am today and I and this is what we're going to get I want to get into and my study will get into at some

point but this is the biggest this is what I see as the biggest problem when I talk about cracks cracking that Foundation that we have psychologists are seeing and so our communication theor is that the impact of just texting and talking through text based communication kids are the major users of this technology their interpersonal skills suck I know that's not what it says up there but that's the thing try to interview or talk face to face with a teenager right now even just not teenagers but let's go a generation under the younger people say I'm not picking but 20 year olds 19 18 it's difficult unless they have worked to home those skills or done some sort

of so bye no one likes my I promise it will apply y you just have to sit through the part where you have to learn something first Mitsy are on this too and looking into the effects on interpersonal development they believe that having a conversation with another and this is what we're really going to get I'm really going to get into and I talked to at another conference is called mirroring if they don't see you do it then how do they learn to do it they don't it's just like the cave remember that anybody remember that whole study believe it or not that actually is true and it's not just they're not seeing y'all do it or their parents not

do it they're not seeing anybody in society mirror these effects it's getting to that point so as it's getting to that point we're going to see that particular block of development totally erot excuse me what is the c talking about is this the cave was forgive me the person's name you I was going I almost said every that's not right no I know okay you know where they they put him in the cave and so the fact the thing is that if if let's say you may know sadness or empathy we're Bor we have those unless you're born with those being blocked you have some sort of psychological problem but you don't know how to use them properly

or put them in context you learn those through mirroring in society mirroring from your parents even abused children can grow up and learn they generally know that that's not normal because they don't see every kid on the street being abused they don't see every child in their school being abused they don't watch on TV people that are being abused they know that they're something wrong with that and that's a personal thing that's why I read that I know that and so the the problem here is that this seems like a new Norm they're seeing reduced empathy all kinds of things so your link to infoset your growing presence in information world it's just going to

make information more prevalent out there more useful in a virtual for us to attack I mean think about it how many of us had cruddy Junior highs or cruddy high school years and that no one knows about I know that no one really knows me or knows anything about me from Junior High in high school and it'd be hard for them to find that information unless I've linked up with them since then because it wasn't pleasant I was able to start over think about kids let's say my daughter even she's 10 growing up in this world of Instagram Twitter Facebook everything's documented on the internet forever where's their start over where's their doover but how many kids are doing

that and most people are encouraging them to be more social more online more out there and and they oh and the less Adept your people are because you're hiring you know your people these are your people that you're going to be hiring to work customer service to work secretarial positions to work at positions that I would Target as a social engineer the less adep they are at face to- face communication the more susceptable they are a social engineer who will exploit that vulnerability you know what they're wanting and they need and the need that and it sounds sick almost when I say it like this but a need that I'll exploit is that they're really lonely and hungry for someone who

will sit and personally talk to them put their hand on them when they T talk to them and touch them and it may sound to you right now like that's lame and that's BS go with me sometime let's go let's try it in 10 minutes I can get somebody to start talking about where they grew up where they do at work on and on and on and on and on we're storytellers and we love to tell everybody our stories and we don't have anyone to tell anymore not really not not close not interpersonally not intimately it's almost a sad feeling cuz you walk away and they're glad that they met you you're so ni she's so sweet she's so

friendly wow or men even and and women I've had women get mad at this part and you can and that's okay I understand the women social Engineers will exploit this I will the fact that a lot of men get most of the attention that they get online from women so a lean in close a touch on the shoulder that'll get me close enough if I have to plant a USB drive or slip it in for a moment or if I have to just slide one on your desk at a bar to get you to buy me a drinks and get you talking and talking and talking and you know what I don't have to be that pretty I'm

not I don't even have to wear low cut shoes and stilettos it's the touch it's the scent it's the proxic that I'll run through quickly in a second you know they can talk about social engineering toolkits and spoofing and fishing and everything else I'm not that kind of social engineer but my methods they work just as well if you need information on one target or a couple targets or I need to get in somewhere or I need to get information and the thing is your company your people that work for you they need to know that they need to understand understand that they need to understand it's okay to say you know what I'm uncomfortable or you don't

belong here and they need to know that they need to shut up talking they need to get a real friend or some friend or you need to start something in your work where you guys talk to each other and go out and actually talk and have friends instead of everything being online sorry I was so so lost so social two definitions new in the information World information security context and it's old in the social sciences you guys would like to think you invented social engineering apparently you didn't or some of you not all I invent that on to you people information security the art of manipulating people this is what we when we apply it to this it's the art of

manipulating people into performing acts for divulging information that will comprom security these can be parts of long or short cons usually they're short cons usually it's a con you you piece piece piece piece piece piece piece piece and let's say you're my you're my person that needs me to get all those pieces I'll give them all to you you know what to do with them I don't and you put them all together in that puzzle and they're all pieces of that puzzle that will take down or have a critical piece of infrastructure for that company social sciences social engineering how to best manipulate people has been long studied in social sciences the application of the tools

and their applicability to form to information security are being studied and used more and more because we see how this is being done now and so we're trying to see the crossover between what you guys are doing and used in our studies this has been around social engineering has been around yes before Kevin vck and yes before Chris had naggie uh you remember the guy that's social engineering was your BOS remember that that's social engineering I joked in one class that it's been around since the cavemen when they figured out that they could sell one rock for the price of two rocks when they figured out they could con you of you know the stick they

needed for fire for Lea you know however it was done social engineering has been around long this communication's been around I guess they rely on one one thing to work though the victim doesn't know it's a scale and this is just a quote I likeed experience demonstrated that ignorance of the public with regards to the capability of trickery is the principal factor for every deception if the public only knew a little more about this thousand of then they wouldn't

exist right and we have it inherent most people believe that other people are good people generally other people are bad people we're all bad people we all lie three4 of communication when we talk when we answer questions we're lying how are you doing today I'm fine we lying how does that look on me it looks great honey it's a lot do this make my butt look big a l no honey your butt looks huge I mean just different things did you have fun no just did you like this or that I mean we lie if we didn't lie our social structure would fall apart honestly I mean could you imagine but the fact is we're Liars some

people are better it than others we lie big and small things every day all day and I said social engineering takes its theories from those rooted in Social scien so sorry and they're vast you guys incremental persuasion is the best thing that you could teach your people because this is what we do the most as as social Engineers I get you to do one favor it doesn't seem like a big one then five questions down the road it's a bigger question or a bigger favor and and and and eventually it's something big but by then I've gained your trust by then we have a mutual understanding or by then I've got something that you owe me you

owe me this you need to have your employees be aware that when someone's asking questions and questions and throwing them in and peppering a conversation with all questions there's something wrong

manipulations of non-verbal cues advantages of learning communication skills the awareness of social manipulation all of those things nonverbal goes all way back to Darwin so if you want to start learning about that that's the first place you start it was the first person to recognize nonverbal communication these are what they look like

but within that there's a thousand more other Expressions that are vast and vague but if you start looking and try to look at the human face and get an idea that helps you learn your co-workers learn about the people you work with the only way you can is by talking to them and looking them in the eyes and in the face people ask all the time is there a way to know if I bring her to you will you know she's lying because I don't know her and the reason you can't tell is because you don't know her either because you never really talk to her face the only way people can tell the people that are experts line in

deception you have to build a basine before you could even go to that point toss on understanding them like I said 93% everything I it it it's hard for me to turn it off when I up here to know that I know some of you are bored or some of you aren't listening or some of you don't agree or some of you think it's lame I can tell by the way you sit by the way you move by the way your head and I had to shut that off you have to learn you need to learn at least some of those skills if you're in any kind of position over people what's the learn B I'll answer you after

because I'm I got to speed through real quick and non-verbal communication can show if you're really listening somebody or you're really not and I already talked to you about that and it's really cool you can look this up facial exra coding system it can actually predict deception at 80% accuracy but like it's a computer program it's not something you just go and throw out there on that's what it does and my facial expressions are Universal the way you car yourself sit walk move the way you put your hands the way your feet are the way you posture yourself all those things have a message in them whether you want them to or not whether you intend them to or not you

know why because we patterned mirrored and behaved oursel over a certain period of time that social deformity does that and our and our bodies respond to what our mind is thinking not automatically they just do it automatically let's say you want to go out the door A lot of times you'll turn your foot toward the door whether you realize it or not or you shift your body toward the door when you're talking or you're nervous and you're trying to hide it there's certain muscles will clinch up in your body when you're trying to hide it in your face but because you're clenching those muscles it hasn't involuntary response muscles

shate instead of you know there's a degradation I mean maybe there's a degradation in the system how we interpret things we can no longer interpret the same way but maybe it's just a change well there's some responses like fear that are going to trigger an emotional response whether you want it to or not and that's going to show in your body whether you realize it to where you realize it or not or line or things but as far as communication degradation it's the ability to show things that like empathy to properly control and deal with anger or handle a conflict situation does that make sense it's more how to manage control and deal with deal with communication

and interpersonal communication or even big communication situations they just don't know how and a lot of times they would have learned those things through watching parents do it or instead they'll type out a rent online and then think that's whatever or say I'm sorry text message I'm sorry a text message well what does that get you you just bypass the whole fact that haven look somebody in the face face what you did and say I'm sorry you're not learning to deal with those emot those response responses those emotions those Communications and you're not you're not learning to communicate properly with other people I don't know what effect that will have later that's what we're saying but it's not

good I can you I mean no empathy people with no empathy those are

sociopaths and these things I can send you guys about chronics is a study of time I can use time to manipulate you SX it's me using my distance to manipulate you whether I going to be close to you or far away from you a lot of times I'll watch you in a group setting or find out if you have an issue with it and I'll use that to manipulate a situation with you do you like people close to you or far away from you do I want to pressure you hard I want to pressure you soft tactics touch depends on what I'm doing if I'm trying to like do neurolinguistic programming then I'll do touch or if I just know you don't like

touching you maybe I'll just touch you constantly or if I know you haven't just V pallet paralinguistics to um that's again talking really softly to get your I want you to listen or me yelling if I know you don't like being yell that or talking firm voice fast voice I'm talk really fast because I know it's really urgent I make you think it's really urgent you got to give me this information right now and it makes me see more credible if I have something else to go along with it so I talk best uh all those things artifacts and olfactics olfactics are smell people are turned on by smells um I can find out what cologne

your mom used to wear if she's dead and and that's sounds horrible my mom died when I was 13 so that's why I used the EXC that's why I use that example with not much but uh I know her hairspray has infect on our old Hairspray has infect on me um or if you are you you hate really bad foul odor and I want to back you into a corner that's why people say take a shower at death yeah um and artifacts are things that you bring along with you I guess there kics are your your involuntary involuntary body movements or purposeful purposeful body movements that you do just a stud of movement and then modern applications

it's just like aat display emblems adapters sorry I have to rush gestures gestures can be manipulated you can watch oh there's so much presidential tape on fake outrage and then then some slam on the slam on the table if they really route race they would have slam their hand on the table when they said this so gestures are used to manipulate and then your personal appearance it's really hard to get over a first depression with somebody so if you want to manipulate in a first depression if you want to have a good or if you actually truly want to have a good first impression and and you can that can be you can hate that all you want but it it

is the truth it is what it is visual impact is at least as import as verbal impact especially at first they we all we all know that an eye contact ey contact these are just how to I can tell you that you need to try to accurately read other people's emotions and practice and and talking to them so I think you're feeling this way create a trust respond in ways to know they care uh pay attention inconsistency look at nonverbal communication signals as a group and trust your instinct and I just going to tell you the answers real quick so this one was sadness fear contemp someone show you contemp really hating at the time anger Joy surprise

disgust that means they really hate you and then just how to avoid be targ like I said earlier if it's no say no that's it and I that I love that face I mean really so if you have any questions you can ask me there's like I said there's a lot upcoming research done on the topic it's a huge topic and it's deep and it's and like when you really love something it's hard to condense it so if you have any questions just let me know and and keep looking at had Nag's blog over at hadag stuff over at Social Engineering and some new stuff will be there hopefully pretty soon I appreciate your attention and I will answer your

questions so

thanks what was in your thesis you mention that you wanted you argued for an eth eight pain pain pain and it actually showed up just as well as as far as a d or E with one being the highest indicator on the scale and one being the lowest it actually showed and proved is tracked as well people could identify it just as well it was at its highest and misidentified it at its lowest but it's not something you can get into like Xmen or something like that unless I go on to do it as doctoral research and didn't you have a question that I didn't answer ma'am she's on her phone about basic resource for learning the

Bas of this I would go to emman umman yeah Colman has several good books there's Darwin but that's pretty deep but it's the origin of where they came from but I would start with egman and then bergon is Judy bergon and her stuff is she's still teaching and still developing and she's nonverbal just period just on nonverbal communication and and it's very good very easy to understand and once you just start digging around and looking up either nonverbal communication for nonverbal communication there's some really good stuff just out there already as far as micro Expressions you're going to get some controversy about that but's really good and then Chris's book is pretty good Chris I like it and that's

on social engineering and practical tips on how to apply social engineering and how to defend against thank you know the change I see change with

people a lot of a lot of our Pro this is part of the research I'm doing on communication degradation is also of words like where we've taken words and appli meaning that doesn't go with them like we were doing um and it's kind of controversial but we were doing we were looking at when people say assault people were automatically thinking assault rifle or people were thinking there's been a three people four people killed downtown and people were like it could be a terror you know it was just automatically hyper sensit sensitivity when did this start paranoia start and we're trying to track that back and lot of people were like 911 and so we're trying to track it further back but a

lot of it was around the 247 new cycle when it became when it started which was around 9911 and around and then before that around Coline when all that stuff started happening so there's a theory it say Theory and it says whatever by George gerner and it says whatever the media tells us repeatedly to believe then that's what we're going to believe and it's a and because it gets buried down into our subconscious I was answering questions I'm sorry and uh and then and so there are some people that are opting out of the system maybe but they're really not what they're doing instead of that they're just they're isolating themselves further they isolate themselves further into a

pocket of people that just think like them and that's something that has never really been offered before until the internet you know um on the internet they just tend to circle around other people that believe that they just the same way they do so they're not challenged by anybody else um and then there's a few that want to go out and find a fight so they go on every message board that thinks differently like and post something controversial about Obama or about God or about Republicans or the devil I don't know but if you ever see that I think you can read about so it's not that they're really I haven't seen opting out of systems I

see opting out of critical thinking skills I see opting out of involvement in the system I see opting out of I see opting out of wanting to try to change anything anymore and part of that because we take we don't teach them how to communicate effectively even their argument try talking to some of these kids ask and keep asking them to effectively communicate their argument both ways both ways for and against try to make them argue both sides

that's effective skills right

down the workplace forces them to go to work in their their office in the cule them to sometimes work in groups where somebody's going to be a leader and T work and they go and do their thing the workplace forces them sometimes to go to training where someone stands in front of them and tells them what to do and they may play some games the workplace do not Foster a group or family

atmosphere one more and then I got to get out here hurt me QA room okay down by the uh escalators okay you can go down and spend as much time with questions as all right you want to come down there y'all come down there and I'll answer anything you want okay sorry what was your question okay I can answer while I'm do it all this thank y'all so much and I'll be around and I'll be at death con and my I'll be in the booth at Saturday at 2 o' so if you want to come hear me try to get somebody on phone Lord help me counter there for showing St midnight

I got my got