Delivering The Fail: The Post Office IT Scandal - Brian Whelton

um right so obviously I gave this talk last couple of months ago in still conon so it's changed slightly because there's judicial inquiry going at the moment started in February last year and looks like going on for another year this last two weeks have been quite stressful because I was actually writing some of these slides last night about 10 to 12 I haven't seen them since then so um it's going interesting and obviously I gave this talk last year it's still so this year at still come out second so that number one in the top left hand corner is the important thing the slide if on this slide is not important but it ISS correcting um my name is Brian wton I do

stuff and this look come on come on a tough crowd so right let background for this is there's a lot of legal talking here because it's about human impact basically it's not technical we come to that same I don't come from legal background um don't ask my advice you ask me what drink I want everything in this there's no zero days in the public domain nothing privileged uh more importantly I haven't changed any names and I will be naming people and showing photographs and uh everything I show you I'm going to give you a link to this is something different from what I did in St that's where number one comes into it so you'll have a link which we posted in

about half an hour on Twitter you can Google it up give you a link at the end but basically you can just click on the link it'll take you straight to everything I'm talking about every document I'm talking about you can read this entirety because I'm going to rush through a lot of these because I've got a lot to say anyway here we okay so computers everything you do today is governed by computers going back to the bgp talk just now there was a DNS outage for Amazon a few years ago in New York and my friend's robot racking C stopped working in London everything we do is computer based you get train some computer when when computers go wrong

though you get cheese in your burger or you miss your train or something happens it's very inconvenient but what if you're accused of a crime based on evidence from a computer you think there safeguards that aren't there that's great because the PE and Evidence Act 1984 section 6 meant that anyone taking to cour with any evidence compu the computer be a log an email regardless of what they actually is had to go through reasonable grounds to make sure the computer was working correctly otherwise it could be in as evidence and that's fine except that uh the post office here you go they wrote to the law commission 1995 saying it was hampering their prosecutions because they have more

expense and they're having to prove a computer working there bit inconvenient for them it wasn't just a post office it was a BT CPS with ETI dland Revenue a lot of other companies as well so in 1995 so the law commission changed the law and in 2000 on the 14th of April uh the youth Justice Evidence Act 1999 in section 60 of it appealed section 69 it brought in a legal term which is quite interesting called presumption of computer reliability um doesn't fit with me basically unless you can prove computers impaired at the time of operation a court would deem that you have been working correctly so let's just say for example you work for a

large UK Brown post office that picked that one out the A and using one of their tills and it was acting like a random number generator and they come and accused you that basically you were stealing the money from it it said that you should have this but you don't well they take you to court you say it's the computer how do you prove it you don't have access to logs have access to anything like that they're saying it's robust they've even got someone from the compan it made it and supplied it and supports it to come to court and say no computer systems robust how can you defend against that you can't which is why that law needs

changing but that's that's the current state of law as it is today so bear that in mind when you're actually conducting anything to do with computers so going talk eyes he the post office didn't mention him post office 25 years ago appreciate some you probably w't boln there with a front door to every government service you wanted if you wanted uh claim benefits if you wanted to pay tax uh get tax L for your car anything you had to do with the government had to go through the post office over the front door obviously as now we've got more and more services online you get G Services hardly anyone uses post of said more but they were

literally the front door they were very very important back in 1999 when Horizon was released and F the UK had the internet at home not many people had bank accounts believe or not people were still getting paid in cash so that's why post office was so important to communities back then now obviously it's almost not really these guys here are international computers limited um they were 80% owned by a company called Fujitsu effectiv the European armor Fujitsu 2002 I think March they got fully bought out and rebranded in 2003 the Jitsu bless them uh we have these people here the sub poost Masters and sub poost M says these people from every background you can

think of I am from sub poost Master is a generic term and it's what e in saying with different combinations But ultimately um there are heroes but also unfortunately are victims in the story um there was 18,000 sub post offices 18,000 post offices that's three different Tri that come to SEC there was three different post off in 1999 still is today 18,000 of them it's about 11 half thousand post offices today um because you had that many post offices you have to have the Auditors and investigators make sure that sub post Masters because they effectively sub post sub post offices are actually franchises not McDonald's they actually work post office they're technical contractors and you want to make sure

they're doing okay so you got that many post officers you got that many Auditors and investigators and then obviously you have IL legal teams now legal teams are quite interesting because you have internal counsel and external couns internal accounts are the ones who work for you with inhouse solicitor external counsel or what you'll pull in because either you need more resource or specialist for example if you ever bought a house you probably what to the convey solicitor because you don't have the EXP to do it patents and stuff like like like in computers you got all the different types of reality the same with legal things they've used about I think the number is 20 different companies

over the last 20 years there's definitely quite a lot of which six we using in prosecutor and postmasters with those different things so those are those guys and then we have our judges judges can only make judgments Bas than what they hear in court if evidence that we say is not shared with defense where it should have been Court won't hear it and uh you don't get a fair trial but what comes out in a second so the post office sure most you've interacted with the post offic are been in one I hope you've seen one um whever there but basically they're very very old 1660 created his left General letter office we changed Post Office later 661 our first postm

and 663 we had a gentleman attorney appointed he had some legal Powers he was chasing um people breaking into male carriages going up down the country um that was his job 1707 they act to the union it's then England and Wells were affected one country they joined with Scotland that's how old the country is it's actually older than Britain 1793 post investigation department formed now there are sometimes investigation brch as well but they basically oldest recognized criminal investigations body in the world effec the oldest police force in the world and they still exist today the Industrial Revolution was 1760 so we're talking a long time ago in 1801 United F Great Britain of irelands obviously in 1926 Northern isand because

Republic was formed right there and in 2019 this is a really important one post office was still saying that remote access wasn't possible to Horizon Terminals and the system was fine Unfortunately they went to court was proved it wasn't andot was possible so going back to my question about the post office um Horizon it's delivered to them delivered their systems now Horizon was effectively a financial system now it's important to remember that as we go forward it's a financial system it connected to all these other different government departments it connect to all these external parties are like celester as well next to the DV won't be do anything with the DVA at post office because all these

all these different departments now doing it directly online so next year officially D will not do anything post office but like I say you used have to go get your benefits if you wanted to pay tax or anything like that you had to go to the post office so it had all these presumably Cod of connections with all these other different govern departments and also with the few third party private places now this causes a problem because if someone fought the Horizon was we say a random number generator or flawed in any way would you want your computer system one connected to it and two dealing with it I wouldn't and so that leads us into what this

whole talks about and I'll come C the site to give you some idea how much business the post office does in June this year they tweeted this and in may they went through 3.33 billion pounds away of cash transactions across their branches that doesn't include any credit card transactions that's cash they do a lot of it's a big business and that's that's why reputation is key so this leads us to where we are today the post office Horizon it scand who here has not heard of it wow check the seats as the seat belt you might need them buckled up okay for a surprise because this is horrific um and it's ongoing by the way s why you

going there for year long right so basically it's the largest miscarriage of Justice in wsh history although it did happen in Scotland uh it was happened in Northern Island don't foret they have a different legal system up there uh in both those countries slightly different and uh they basically took people with civil and Criminal Courts uh for theft H accounting and or fraud and they were quite successful their legal strategy is fantastic just we hold evidence um these were carried out by the post office which is owned by the taxpayer you and I own the post office today we still own the post office and uh they're Aid in the beted by a multi-billion pound company called

fitsy um who weren't going to stop the post office looking after the reputation post office bet the farm on Horizon it was in every one of their their places they had no other method of doing business so they had the post off to about three years ago had on their website the UK's most trusted brand obviously they removed it um but their reputation was effent to such an old institution they see themselves as that that they had to protect their reputation and that basically meant if Horizon was acting like a r number generator and it was well they had no plan B they sold everything they bet the farm on on Horizon so they had to defend Horizon to

the hilt and fitsu were not going to let them do that because fitsu obviously it would affected their reputation fits have been largely they managed to avoid a lot of the linear for this the post office are had to blame the post office one who structed legal legal action but they wouldn't had be able to do that if it weren't enabled by fidgets in my opinion anyway so this is how it pretty much worked three different types of post off like I mentioned earlier you have Outreach which obious your mobile post offices you have your crown post offices which are the big post offices those guys are civil servants um and then obviously we have our sub post offices

which the ones you nor we see in the small shops you little counter you know little local supermarket now at the end of each week Branch trading period they had to do a branch trading statement which they used to do PR 999 on a big sheet and they used to write down all their transactions they doing them and then in week effectively the branch chain statement was a stock T of what you should have and it worked reasonbly well that Pap work then went the Chester fori is where the head head office the post office is but obviously coming towards the 21st century um everything was been computerized and this was a very arcanic way of doing business so

they decided they're going to go off and put out to Tender uh Gypsy won the contract they come bottom of eight of the 11 criteria which was set and they didn't score very highly in the other three uh but they won the contract and maybe live with these terns here um little things AR it um so the screen's look like that it first released in 2010 they did an upgrade and it looked like that that's uh that's still the current screen they've got now even though they didn't have upgrade in 2017 sometimes the screen look like that that's a fult with tily for some reason forut love using TI for management it's a horrific program made by ABM please

try and avoid it sometimes it look like that again that's not bug or defect because Horizon was again not another issue clearly something not issue with Horizon and I love this one here this is not an issue of horizon but it's got an error code if it's got an error code there must be a decode book somewhere i' love all that decode book I love know what that is so those last four screenshots were sent well they were posted on Twitter by a guy called Chris head Chris head was the youngest postmaster in I think sometime 2006 to 2015 he was 18 he started over and I said course can I please use those said Chris can I please use those

pictures and then yeah you crack on and he went on to say that sometimes the branched computers would take two hours to to to boot up and he had to have M ready 9:00 when the post office opened luckily his shop opened at 5:30 so he had time to do that but whil he was doing it it's so frustrating the amount of Errors he had he started taking photogs of them because you know clearly the system was robust I said well Chris that's fantastic message can I please use that he went yeah crack on crack on Chris is actually local I did actually ask him if he can come down unfortunately he wasn't available he is

actually from new so unfortunely great he was here but he was saying Bic you know Theo was if something was wrong the first thing the post office would do instead of the first action the postm would see is they start replacing stuff the ADSL line the rout the hardware yeah because that fixes issues um fundamentally probably was some hardware issues there we'll go into that in second but fundamentally issue was with rise en coding which should we say sub optimate anyway this is Tim back he's also another subst master and he tweeted this now I don't know where he got these figures from he won't tell me but if he says that's the case in 2002 um that's

13 and a half my office post uhhuh thank you very much and so it's 13 and a half% 13 half% failure rate was pretty high now in the early 2000s and if you're not aware of it vits had to for hard drives I think they record something like 300,000 hard drives and I'm not another POS okay and uh so um if go to the register there was a big recall I think they got sued in America for it they had loads of issues with their hard drives in the only 2000s 99 2004 I think it was so it's quite possible that some of that was down to dodgy hard drives they stupid enough to use their own material anyway so the

branch train so at the end of the branch training period now it comes up on the computer the computer says what you should have how much cash checks so forth and so on and if you didn't agree with the branch training statements you simply won't be allowed to trade the next day because you had to press a button it said you agreed that the statement was correct so if you had £500 in cash but it said you sh ,000 in cash that's not correct you shouldn't be pressing the button but if you don't press the button you can't trade the next day so what's the subst master going to do well first thing going do is

going find the help desk there's a lady called Joe Hamilton she had a descrip of 200000 she finally help this up and she followed their instructions pressing buttons on the screen and she ended up with this J 4,000 PS at this point then help us like okay fix yourself in the was don't worry reboot it it be fine in the morning so ended up with £ 36,000 deficit she remortgaged her house of £30,000 I believe a local Village actually cled together and paid £6,000 uh she was taken to court for 14 counts of false accounting and um she was yeah she was Guy 14 14 County and basic that's because of this I theft that now

that's the one we're looking at here for false accounting but often what would happen is the post office will take someone the court for theft when they get to court they'll turn say listen if you Adit the lower charge of false accounting and sign this document here saying that Horizon wasn't a fault we're willing to drop the F stret and you probably won't get to prison it's sa for accounting well um there's a chance to silence the sub poost Master get sign an NDA said it wasn't Horizon but some were still sent to prison quite a few were sent to prison even though they admitted the charge which they weren't guilty to their solicitors were actually saying

look all the evidence against you is it's overwhelming main because basically post office hav given all the head the defense to um what they had given over was the guilty part they didn't G over the bit that was some of these um sties were actually MPS now and you they're and some of the judges who sent people to prison you can imagine how they feel now because they'll just lied to in court effectively well not lied so that's that's a strong they were misled in court wasn't told the whole truth but yeah so that effectively slam dunk pressing that button saying you agree with that even though the figures are wrong is false accounting slam dunk

can't get away from it that basically meant you basically end up with in order to turn up and Auditors had some fantastic Powers they can go in even though you bought the shop the post office and the idea of having the shop in the post office was thoughtful back in the early 2000s because you had to do all your transactions in the post office having a little corner shop having the post office in was fantastic because everyone had to go to the Post Office anyway to do all their stuff they buy something from your shop nowadays there probably not so much of a draw but back in the 2000s you know yearly 2000s it was it it's a fantastic way it's like

selling newspaper the newspaper Li it's great way of get people in the shop by SP by St girls so um the investigators would turn up and they could literally kick you out your own post office and they can suspend you there and then so you weren't allowed in the post office in your shop so you still to work the shop but they'll bring someone else into work in the post office it's ridiculous there's so much power and often led to a obviously F inquiry or civil inquiry not everyone was Tak his criminal cour and uh obviously end up with the judge and the judge obviously makes judgment based on what he hears now here's the thing

that you need to start considering when You' got the whole legal aspect of it the post office own Horizon terminal even though it's managed and supplied by jit post that made them the victim but also made them the investigator and the prosecutor because every one of the prosecutions went through a private prosecution it didn't go through the CPS the first thing the CPS would have done was where's the money clearly if Joe Hamilton was Bing every morgage in a house for £3,000 she clearly hadn't sold £3,000 because she had to remor house and the question was never asked there's lots of evidence of postmaster is paying money back in and not every postmaster was actually criminal or C um convicted they

were often suspended or they could be sacked after three months so there's thousands of sub poost Masters who have been playing money back in to avoid any action because basically their contract with the post office meant that any U if there's any loss post they their contract they had make up the post office could not be at loss so if there's £250 down they put 250 or there 250 car down they are Li 250 quick it's a very unfair contract it was deemed unfair in 2019 but yeah so effectively their investigators who say are um yeah I say they're world class um prosecutors yeah they're world class they knew what sends of Defense what not the send of the

defense but gr need some Nam from people who are good these are good people people nice people they're very nice first we have Rebecca Thompson Rebecca Thompson was the person deemed to be um the first R article about Horizon there was some articles you going on you know where there some people moan about the computers but people were doing that in the 2000 because computers AG with me but she wrote an article which basically put the post office on their back foot they were quite worried about what she wrote and comes out askp a minute this guy here KL Flinders she worked for computer weekly she's freelance now but Carl Flinders continues to work for

weekly and he continues to cover the post office judicial inquir that's going on at the moment and he does some fantastic work definitely watch if you don't read computer weekly definitely worth reading um Nick Wallace Nick Wallace literally wrote the book literally this's the book it's a great book I would fully recommend the book it's fantastic book it's a great post office Scandal it's about the group mitigation trial OB the things they not from 2019 it's a very easy read definitely G buyers worth great book he's in Psych psychopedia he tended to call every day location 2019 these two here in hon and Ron wimington they make up theal second site who friends account it friends

accounts and also it Auditors as well they've done thousands of audits around the world uh as it transpires their audit of the Horizon system was actually pretty damn good and uh yeah top marks those guys these three here these are gothy work po Marshal Flor P gos M's plenty of legal representation post MERS have doing the things these three here knocked it out of the park and I'll come to that we we talk about CA meure a bit later um remember FL page I'll mention her later she is yeah she's special and Paul Marshall he yeah he has an impact upon this as well but nickol as well got some fantastic work but um it'll be

relevant when I come to it it makes sense then we have Rich Morhead is Professor of legal um I think it's law and legal ethics at University who have stood up a whole department and his team have done some fantastic work uh they're looking at every aspect of this it's not just um you the postmaster thing looking at how they were treated by the judicial system for example it transpires they're doing research into at the moment so I haven't read the full report but it transpires that if you were a non-white post office worker and Char for a similar crime as a white the courts treat probably treat you more harshly get a harsher sentence that's some of

the research look into that as well so looking into every aspect of it not just the actual you know the whole thing they're doing some fantastic work and lastly Alisha Alisha like me has no skin in the game whatsoever other than basically she's AED how the post proces were treated but she's really good at writing fig information with this oh God and she found one the other week which is a part of the prosecution paperwork they had put now IC classing you ever heard this phrase ic1 ic2 ic3 ic1 being white ic2 being mediterran I3 being black sa 4 being Asian of appearance quite an old IC cast but it's used internationally and um it's not really

that massive you used anymore but it was back in the day except that there Supply of a document which had rather for ic3 they used a rather I don't want to use the word but it's a derogatory name to describe people of color um that hadn't been given to the Post Office inquiry she found it for information act as part of the prosecution B they should have been part of the you Discovery given to the judicial inquiry they were quite pissed off and actually had a a specific day where they brought in a load B from post office and asked them can you explain why this wasn't part the back and it comes down to they blaming KPMG

for their disclosure Search tool um but it's all on YouTube you can watch the evidence it's all on YouTube I it's July no it's August say be on the YouTube channel somewhere but they brought them in and grilled them and uh oh yeah it wasn't an easy day if you were an legal team for the post office that day but I know sure that's fantastic any so let's have a look at the Bas basic timeline 996 theit win the contract a pii contract that's I all the time 1999 to 2000 so November 1999 when the first horizon ter hit a desk at post office so up to 500,000 victims so I got that information there the 500,000

victims from a piece ofu propaganda I found on their website from 2003 not entir sure how accurate it is but uh they wouldn't post it somewh 200 Alan Bates what the post office regarding discrepancies Alan bat the postmaster he's taken his post post office over in 1998 this is Alan bat he's from Yer he's a very methodical man a details guy his she's very stubborn and um he had a discrepancy of £5,000 he could understand it so he went for his tool receipt the only thing he only logs he had was his tool receipt and he found about £4,000 worth of doubled entries so he wrote to the post office say look I need more access to logs more

transaction logs so I can go and if I got a loss I need to be able to understand where these logs are you know where was the loss I've only got this paper receipt which is not the best and uh he wrote the post ofice three or four times and in3 they terminated his contract uh because he's asking too many questions um but beside Goodwill the ,50 whatever it was that he owed or deemed to be owed they let go as he has just Goodwill a yeah you say about keep your friends close you want who closer that's not the last thing to hear of him right 2004 Lee Caron he has an audit Le

to suspension cover Le caraston his case minut and 2007 he gets sued near 26 counts 2009 Becca Thompson right second weekly article now the article is really really really good it's still alive you still read it links there number 19 and uh it goes into case studies it goes into Le it goes into Joe Hamilton it goes into I'll come to him later and Alan B in there as well and it goes into their stories it's really really good it's very well written and yes it's the first case it's really fun yes it's it's comprehensive really good anyway says that and in November that same year the Justice sub Post Master Li was formed in

fenny Compton anyone know where fenny Compton is well you guys don't go but so friend Compton come but basically was um convenience store magazine this is the article from back in the day October I'm going to rush for a lot of the websites because you got you got Ledger but basically is explaining what's happening was Allan had basically gone off and because he' been reading stories of postmasters being evicted he'd been contacted other post Masters in that time and invited to this meeting in FY Compton now FY Compton is there it's just nor for banding and there's there's the hall where they they met it was a very English Affair in November sitting drinking tea and biscuits and that's the

Panorama they been Dr realization but um Joe Hamilton was therey hog easy hog was SE Mis no Thomas was there there's lots of people there that as they sat around and they're telling their stories to each other it was very very clear that basically whenever they had any interaction with any post office member staff or J member of Staff all the courts or the Le legal teams they were all told one thing and the word of warning never say this to a postmaster because you will get punched and you deserve it they're all told that you're the only one if there was a problem with Horizon I deal with people all the time surely I would know

about it but you're the only one telling me there's a problem with Horizon which on the scale of lying it's not a white lie it is up there with you know it's up there it's not a good lie so at that point there it's like that fueled them because they had suddenly all their stories the only that changed was L amounts of geography was ridiculous the stories were all the same so they created a Justice subass Min allance JF and also in 2010 Horizon is updated now Horizon was using 4mt when it was released in 1999 and uh you to fix some of those issues they continued using 4mt until 2017 um so they updated that's when they

got the new screen that's where the money I think and in October 2010 SEMA Mis gets goes to trol recover here as well in 2011 2012 in 2011 the justice of post Mar now a quite mature group they've got James abar who Lord who was MP at the time uh Oliver Lewin I think was involved Andrew bridon him of really strange covid opinions were involved in trying to get the post office to have an independent orders the post office okay you know what if we can clear Horizon once and for all we'll stop all these sub post Masters you know the a basically um same as computer isue well we know it's not because the systems bu

why would they l so in 2012 um they started an order time I Told You someid So yeah so April the 1 the RO mail and the post of split um Ro mail is where we just your Postman sting offices that's in private hands post offices counters now that's thr by public but yeah second site reports the inter report so in 2013 it was such um a shock to post office that they inly went to to an external company c um a legal company called cart King and Simon Clark issued some advice based on there yeah the the inter report comes to the car of f is quite important Martin Griff so Martin Griff there was a sub post Martin 95 he

audited and suspended over £23,000 loss he was reinstated pretty quickly so I don't know the circumstances around that and I wouldn't like to suggest anything like that but I'm guessing that most of there was no circumstances around it and they came quite quickly uh he had a big loss between 2012 20137 found in fact in 2013 he had an armed robbery and he was deemed to be 50% responsible and the reason why is uh uh he was trying to take a pass in to the post office but the little stupid hat wasn't big enough so he opened the door pass in and because he hadn't secured the post office and it was robbed they deemed him to be 50%

responsible yeah if you get the impression the post office aren't nice people they know they're not yeah anyway family reckon they paid over £100,000 the C and losses over the lifetime I've been working there but remember I was saying to you about people just paying money back in so they avoid any any don't want get sack anything like that yes anyway 23rd of September 2013 Martin got up as you event he went downstairs he sat down with his wife and kids had breakfast and he left for work at the same time he was do to meet some Auditors at his post office that morning and offie went you know he SP them before it's not an issue but at the same

time offie drove life was good his wife was listened to the local radio and heard a Catholic jam on the news story she knew something was right straight away and uh this really makes me angry to Martin pulled along the side of Roads into a lby and he contemplated I think it's about 30 minutes he sat there and uh instead of going to see the PO Auditors that morning better really had some you know interaction with them and I've not heard good stories about these people I wouldn't say they they're on the professional end of professional uh they're just nasty people just proper W ofy propers some of X poers probably kicked out he sat the side of the road

to contate this you know what to do and he decided getting out of his car and stepping in front of a bus was a more attractive option so anyone I tells you you don't need to be technical to work in it or it security or I'm trying to sell you something be nice to you or a liable to you we have a company for jitu supp a computer system which is basically a random number generator it was horrible it's buggy as hell the butterfly effect of employing people who didn't know what they were doing with the force suicides which have been attributed to Horizon of which this is one I'm certainly there's probably others so yeah it if you work in it you

need to be technical we've got to start somewhere but don't tell people yeah you can do that you got to be technical at some point you are going to have technically that the end result if you get it wrong 2015 April second site released the full report it's the 27th version of the reports um po off obviously say it's it's crap Adam Bas has in the meantime secured funding from thre um for group liation Order Group liation order if you don't know one of those is America have class actions they get govern see someone over here you very similar thing um Horizon NGA is released now I've gone to Windows 10 it still has some issues there a lot

stable than it used to be uh but I understand given the numbers of machines are out there it's still not as good as most Enterprise environments as You' like to have um the group litigation starts in March in 2019 ends on December 10th 2019 it doesn't end in anyone winning ends in a settlement the post office codes jfsa and say listen how much make this go away 2016 sorry December the 16th justce Fraser who was overseeing the trial loses his judgment we'll be kinding heavily on that document later 14th of January Justice Fraser then writes to Max King Max King casy is current head of the Department of Public prosecutions um why would a judge be

doing that let explain that in a couple of slides and the 20th of December almost a year to the day the first six s po Masters who have been convicted on evidence based on Horizon were cleared to date 91 had five were cleared on Wednesday um fact technically might two because one was cleared in Scotland yesterday the first case in Scotland the saw one being cleared because they got a different legal system um yeah it's a bit more complicated there but so technically 92 people been convicted how many people have been convicted well this is a document that was actually these numbers here were found by Nick Wallace who did I mention he wrote a

book called go post office G which is really really good and you should buy it so he wrote to the post office for Freedom press said look how many people have you prosecuted over what years so they applied him this which is all good except that this guy here then vot four days before I gave the talk in still con gave evidence that just inquire say yeah those numbers yeah we we don't think they're accurate anymore oh thanks mate and this guy yesterday this is why I was up to late last night this guy yesterday he come up with what they think the numbers are now which is this document here um I I played about it I try to

make it as displayable as I can I was a bit tired maybe a bit Young and I come up with this so the black numbers are the numbers that were given to Nick Wallace the red numbers are now what the post office believe it is and the blue numbers which are the fair C effectively are preh Horizon but where there was a loss of horizon re loss of revenue from the post office so effectively the te was down so we get rid of those we got that so the numbers are roughly the same what's concerning here is we know postmaster is sub postmaster assistant postm assistant employees and work in a crown estate no idea unknown or other

what differ between other and unknown I don't know and there's lots of unknowns at the bottom basically with people um convicted what year and Sim ask what's his name whatever the guy was yesterday gra evence he um he basically said the numbers are evolving all the time as we come across more information now you think if you taking your employee or contractors to the court you'd like to keep it little a FAL of who you take to the court who you haven't but the transpires no they didn't and so those numbers this is now become become a moving Target they might find more people they prosecuted they forgot about um or they might oh no actually we

didn't prosecute him I don't know how it's going to work but literally that's pretty much what the guy said yesterday um it almost one person a week if you ever taken someone to a criminal trial especially with it to do with finances it's not an easy task and knocking one hour a week with you excuse the expression um is healthy for you do it seriously but um one criminal C this is just criminal chars it's not civil chars this is Criminal chars one person a week civil across the country is yeah credit work to it's good effort but you know the numbers of prosecuted people they prosecuted were roughly the same we know well we believe

736 were actually found guilty of which I say 92 so far have been clear uh six this week but this whereit more interesting let's apply our timeline to that story to our statistics because you very clever people and you will see the pattern it's be sometime but I'm sure you'll see the pattern before I do so Horizon roll out begins and suddenly sub postmasters go on a crime spre so only only any reason 2013 the Simon Clark advice was issued to the post office

board okay what have you seen I haven't I don't okay 2019 OB have the group litigation order here's the interesting thing after group litigation order obviously there's more more legal action taking place obviously the TR inquir on as it stands but in 2020 the Clark advice was disclosed to the post office it wasn't given because the post office aren't very good at disclosing things in court it wasn't given to the group discuss it was very very valid for the group discuss because it determined how the post office dealt with stuff it was found by Paul Marshall one of the people the nice people at bot make a note of Paul Marshall found it and said it was the least was the most

devastating legal document he'd seen in his career which is uh he's had quite a career that's quite devast that's quite interesting statement but what was the Clark advice but the Clark advice is literally an advice you yourself what do you think about this report you SM this so they started looking in there and uh it goes into goes around they looked at a few court cases which they had highlighted in the paperwork that the second side seene and it starts off by saying you know an expert witness if you go to court of witness witness a fact they'll ask you questions about um you'll ask some questions about what you've seen what what you for example if

you're a databas Eng ask questions dat but if they elevate you to a personal to an expert witness rules change because now your duty is not to your client is to the court and the proper administration of law same as a barrister same as a junior solicitor if you're a legal professional you're your first duty is not to your clients to the court so it just goes to clear that it goes on to talk about a guy called Dr jenin I'm not too sure he a doctor if he is that's he sure what on there's a guy called Gareth Jenkins he works J wor J he's the solutions architect on the Horizon Project and it

mentions these cases here as a case study as you can see 2012 to 2013 now I know he was involved in the case in 2010 I know he's involved in the case in 2007 I don't know how many other cases he's involved in but clearly there's a lot it focuses a lot on him and basically go on to say that next witness that's what should doing more importantly the conclusion is Mr Jenkins failed to disclose matal known to him that undermines his expert opinion and more importantly that basically D his credibility is not go witness so in short what the legal advice is saying is that guy from for jitu we've been using an expert witness yeah that's not using

again he knows stuff that he hasn't told the cour technically perjury teally but course of Justice goes on to say that not withstanding the fail Mr JS he calls me Mr Jenkins or Mr Jennings I'm not saying the qual of post office legal teams are good but yeah but then goes on to say that pitsu his employer basically as they supplied him his evidence was probably key to the cases it's quite possible that Jitsu in doing so have averted the course of Justice I'm not a legal expert but that's how I'm reading that it goes on to say that in prob cases it's quite possible the cases he was involved in he might need to go back

to you courts of appeal because it's quite possible without that evidence they might not have been successful so what did the post office do without advice oh oh you know okay yeah that's exactly they did nothing absolutely nothing they sat on it they sat on it to basically it just happened to be disclosed probably by an intern going through low documentation that a senior barer found and realized sniffs of that one document it's definitely worth a read it's number 25 on the list just go and read it it's few pages long but it's quite good but we know that Horizon was bad because the prime ministers have been warned about it now this is from Jeff mland in May

1999 know 6 months before Horizon's rolled out hasn't hit a post office desk yet prime minister was Tony Blair at time and it goes on to say by most criteria Horizon has been fairly disastrous prect I love the word fairly and disastrous fantastic two words to get misconceived from the start has delivered in a an end a far from optimal solution um I'm just happy not to see it one of my delivery reports but that's 6 months before Horizon's released that's a letter to the prim ad minister they still continue with the project this is from fiitu R the same time so look at what's more important here is I've never used it before my La

yeah it was version one and it's February 2000 and this is the OS which electronic Point Sals system I'll explain to you what Pinnacle is in a second but look at the version number at the dates because the same document get issued 13 months later is a version one they're almost identical if you read both documents which you can do because you got the numbers you click on them you can download and read them now um it's written by a guy called Dave mcon this is Dave MC he earned the title Dave the Destroyer because unlike many people who work for f Jitsu or ICL and the post in the early 2000 he uh where they

turned up that the judicial inquiry and they started asking questions here's an email that you wrote do you remember writing it no I don't recall that I don't recall this I don't recall that what was a long time ago this guy had Total Recall he was he was very honest he left IC I think 2002 he was frustrated he wanted to re he saw those large chunks of the code that needed to re writing and he was saying look we need to rewrite these CH the code because they're just you know ain't going to work otherwise we need to write these or nothing else is going to work and of course the management chain looked at that but you know that's going

to slow things down and cost us some money let's not do that and so they didn't and that's where we are today anyway back to the document so a pinnacle so a pinnacle and a peak are effective the same thing they're in internal defects effectively so when they're design the system the raise a defects they call them a pinnacle 2003 when they re bur fitsu and then they start call them Peaks but there the same thing effectively and it have known error logs known error logs are effectively workaround so an error comes about if it's being fixed and there's known error of your known is known you can put the search titles into the database or pull up what the response is

that's what a known error of look like um interesting enough it's this probable dis is known error log using the word probable I don't like that but it's still um potentially disc this is around the same time that jitu hard drivers were failing the front center so it's quite possible to deal with that I love the solution which is reboot uh this this is written by this guy here called Richard Coleman who gave up judicial inquiry something to know uh he left 2007 I think and become a priest and I hope he's still praying because he's involved anyone's involved in this project yes there a special place in the hell it's actually even further in than

where I'm going so dve m in his written statements of the J inquiry basically said look the team was well known within br1 the building in brel Bell um has being a joke everyone knew the system was sh they would a joke of be a whole building the buildings got multiple multiple different J accounts in it um so when went to C OS guys know about that's partly why he left but in that report here just page 17 report this is fantastic and it's definitely worth reading that to although Parts the epos code are well written sniff in sections are a combination of poor technical design bad programming and little F out bug fixes the negative impact of these

factors will continue and spread as long as a pinnacle fixing culture continues I'll explain that in a second this partly due to the nature size of bug fixing task there are loads of them and partly due to the quality of professions of certain individuals within the team don't worry you don't have be technical to work in I this is 2001 this was written this is looking at ot's reports from 1998 I think in August or September 1998 so this is before its release it didn't get better when they released it because they didn't change anything uh the Pinnacle fixing culture well there's not one issue with pin there was no one issue with Horizon um

What affected a bug might affect 14 branches it might not affect every machine in 14 branches it might affect two branches there's one of their might 60 branches it was proper there's no one thing so they all literally continued they'll just make change left Center and this affec is what best describes the uh fixing Culture The Pinnacles proper whacka mole problem comes in you fix it send it out so my favorite line of any report I've ever written or ever seen is the next page on page 18 I I dare the people in still con to try and get into a report they're writing any report you're writing any any document you're writing get it into

an email if you can get this phrase into anywhere you do doing well whoever wrote this code clearly has no understanding of elementary mathematics or the basic of a programming okay so this is an internal fieny document I'm not making this up I could not do that good a job yeah just leave that one there thank you Dave so Justice Fraser who wrote on the 16th 16th of January 16th seary 2019 his judgment for the group res on the 10th of December and he basically B basically puts in there in paragraph 62 of the Judgment um spreadsheet least in the re notes has shown the great number of changes by both Legacy horizon horizon online now the and pro both had

expert Witnesses and they both kind of agreed that they're actually releasing four to five changes a day to production now I don't know about you but I work in price environments getting one thing out the door is bad enough getting four to five a day is either you got a very efficient change process test process and design process or very deficient one but it also begs the question I haven't able to get this one answered that safe you're knocking so many changes out the door is there a succession is there is there a you know a dependency on previous releases because timly you could sign in a horizon ter in the morning go for lunch

come back and it's got a completely different code base if it updated but say for example release number 1 2 3 4 7 8 n Heating machine but it's depend on number six would that then cause further issues I don't know haven't to get the answered but it was a good question but ultimately yes it would just playing wacka absolutely wacka get another change get another change out door how they were releasing that quick just without clearly change management should would say was a very streamlined approach just to change management but going on to what um he said in part of his other documentation that he released in the 16th JY he mentions uh he had gra

concerns regarding the Varity of evidence given by Pro employees in courts in previous civil and Criminal Courts so that led him to write that letter to just to Max Hill Department prosecution which is this letter here you can read it this entirety it goes on that's basically led to operation Olympus which basically um March 2 started they've interviewed Gare Thoms three times under caution and Chambers twice under caution nether have been arrested nether been charged by innoc to Pro guilty let's least give them that Pro they didn't get to the post Masters um yes continues per of the judicial inquir is the evidence isn't given to the police to it's made public they've got they've got a wave on some legal

privilege and some of the stuff so they got lots of really good documentation which is where I'm getting all my documentation from because it appears in the screens it's public uh the police don't get that evidence until it's made public and or until the just inquir ends then they'll get there that's going to be a couple invol weekends for a few police officers because they're going to have so much evidence of people just making really bad decisions uh this is Lee carington Lee carington is an RF vetan so Lee thank you for your service again uh lee was having trouble with Horizon so in 2003 2004 uh December through March I think it was yeah he was suspended after

an audit he rang the help desk 31 times he even asked him come down and please audit me in the documentation come out yesterday actually as an email saying Lee was very happy to see the Auditors when they turned up because Lee had done nothing wrong he had two machines but there only one machine having an issue they obviously changed lots of bits of the machine still had the same issue uh they sued him for nearly £26,000 this is a civil case not a criminal case which is why not in those numbers they took a lot to people to civil court and H most people bowed down just paid the money because ultimately these are decent people they had to go

through security come post you just don't walk into sub post office go I'm today I'm a sub Post Master thought the checks have to go um this is the case paper against Richard Morgan was the bar Prosecuting him and uh January 11th 2007 they won the case um we come into that again there awarded cost the judge of the case found an Chambers to be acknowledgeable Li witness and accept their evidence um yes and no this is an chamers that's how many times she's given evidence to judicial inquiries so she given one day two and a half one day and a half days and two days this this week she gave evidence um she was kind of thrown to

the walls to be fair she turned out to be a witness fact which is about TIY logs um legit didn't give the TIY logs to the court but she turned up to talk about TI logs she end up being an expert witness which changes the way the court approaches here um in Justice phaser paper in his letter to um max Hill he mentions that basically in emails it mentions a bug um which C the square bug which could have affected these Terminals and relevant K was written by hisb G Simpkins who still works with vit that's him evidence judicial ire and it goes on to say look didn't form any of their evidence it should have you know

it may not have been relevant but you have to turn around say I'm Weare of some but nothing that could have affected this that would have been perfectly fine but to deny an existence or not to mention an existence is as good as denying in the court when I asking are you other issues that could have affected it um is not good so anyway she wrote a two-page Shram to fitsi management when she got back she wasn't too happy about being classing exp witness and in it she's effectively saying fitsa made a legal blunder by not disclosing or relevant evidence so they have a fits of employee as well as Simon King saying that fitu should say um yeah

should be more proactive what they were doing unfortunately everything that fitu would do was chargeable to the post office so you could argue that they won't pay to do it but under law doesn't matter if they PID or not you have a civic duty to do so that's my there so that's the just cost so we know that they we 26,000 we know that he didn't have much money we basically you go to a civil court you want to some for £26,000 any money for after it is going to be basically um you you're not going to get back either as simple as that so how much money do you as a company spend tr

get that 26,000 back which you know you won't get back, five and it's interactive you can stop me any time 100,000 would you spend £250,000 trying to get £6,000 back a company size of the post office was A3 billion p a month turnover that's the biscuit that's the biscuit budget isn't it for the for the meeting they spent £ 321,000 of your money taxpayers money getting that £26,000 back which they didn't never get back uh this guy here Richard Morgan was the head of Note Paper mland Chambers is where he currently Works only put there that's where his CV is M Chambers had nothing to do with anything to do Post related just get out um he worked for

compan called bon Pierce who later Chang the name to rumble Bon Dickinson who I still call wble within the legal Community they're called The Wombles they're not very well respected the wbl on if you go to any legal forums as I have found myself in the last couple years yeah they not holding high regard this is Steven Dilly he's a particularly um smug um oh he is no he gave evidence he watch his evidence and he's denying anything did wrong no no I did it I think correct clearly not and and we'll come to that in a second documentation something his email heot anyway so this is Lee's wi statement and basically he says that well VI organ go meet

outside he's off go get the court bundle Court bundle off the paperwork he needs that to go to court he gets that he goes look Lee you don't need to go let us finish us make all go away and just get on of your lives now obviously that's an attempt to get Lee to turn up Lee doesn't tell in court he will by default life is good even in Civil Court prosecution to defense outside of the Court about a case is frowned upon that is is not very good it have been off for that um but he did it it's Le's got evidence to say this happened but this is Lee's written statement sworn evidence to J inquiry so

I assume it's true he also Steven Dilly then Rings him that night he check him into the hotel father saying Lee you must understand you don't need to go on Wednesday we were surprised to see thing I bet you were um the conversation but Lee look we are the post office we will ruin you now Steven Dy denied saying that he said that he was probably misunderstood then why would Lee repeat it say no Lee just listen we will ruin you think of your family yes Steven Dilly is um quite awkward when he was asked about that phrase anyway this was Steven Dilly's think in page 2th of June 2021 the reason why I know that date is on the

27th June 2021 I posted that on Twitter uh he changed it overnight but let's Cent invested 800 million in the it system it contracts didn't work there's a reason for that I won the seminal case that said otherwise no Richard Morgan won the case you there sign and stuff red face is avoided this is a professional this is a he's LinkedIn page suppos he's now actually a senior partner at the wbl but he's like a this his partner this is his LinkedIn page people go to his page and see this heyy he's the kind of guy I want representing us oops shall he delete data from my computer system Jesus Christ yeah apparently you don't have to know law to

work in legal worlds that that much is true but he also did it the same on their um corporate page as well 27 28 they changed that as well because I I posted that as well and they changed it overnight because I I included their American subsidary you more they concern as well and it's quite embarrassing for them any on um if you go page today they will say it's still not there but they bar case but do nothing to do with that now obviously Steven's not here to defend himself I haven't asked him whether not basically it's the first time events after seeing his evence there were there I think it actually is but the Law Society Gazette actually did

ask him they wrote they did a p on him last year and uh he will refuse the comic because Bas obviously ongoing judicial inquiry so I don't see why he twitched me here's an email from Steven Dy to his boss Tom bezer Tom bezer uh was his partner at the wbl um what's really important here is obviously that there it's from Mr Billy and it basically says Mr cast list is asking us for information how dare they you know they want they want disclosure I hate when they do that and uh they're asking for were there any wider issues with the post office with the Horizon system not just specific to Le were there any wider

issues which could be indicated a pattern well I think we can understand that what it was he also goes on to say he got this information here from the post office and there a horizon help list receives 12,000 to 15,000 CR per month this is the technical problems Horizon this is State Services which is posted there 20,000 calls which will count issues I don't know about you but if you got a help desk and you've only got 15,000 branches they are quite significant numbers more so when you look at this number here it's just from the um parliamentary library of post office numbers everything outre the mobile ones agency are the um sub post offices and

Crown obviously the crown post offices so 2005 roughly just under 15,000 post offices and they are getting 15,000 calls a month technical help if I was a service management lead for the Post Office I'd be asking why is that the case maybe should send some of our staff on training because that number needs to come down that just doesn't me anyway that letter didn't get disclosed to Le C defense team um but it come out the judicial inquiry this week as with loads of other stuff as well this is Step Diddy given evidence there's this one's one's a car sell and one's an state agent I'm not buying anything or even them um but he gave evidence those

those gave evidence one day you had to come back the next morning because basically there as being asked so many questions it's quite painful to watch but at the end of the day if you go to the the 55 link that's when the um core participants legal teams asking questions oh you've never seen a man SCM like I am just now he screw words that's Richard Morgan given evidence God days SEMA Mis so sea Mis is the first case I heard of the post office inquires the one that basically got me interested in the whole thing just Rabbit Hole I went down not no involvement this whatsoever so s m she had two post offices the

second post office is where they started having the issue my husband Dinda were doing quite well took the second post office on that's where it all start go bit wrong for them um she was suspended in 2008 after an S AIT and she was then charged with £75,000 worth of theft despite evidence of her borrowing money to pay money back in all the other good stuff obviously went to court now prior to going to court obviously there was a the usual email between Iz hog andal team saying can we have some discloser please and go to Chi see Theos like they weren't having it so following threee trials she was found guilty of theft and

six Force cting four times during the trial Andy dunks and J gave but four times during the trial they asked for you know are there any known issues any known errors now that known error log and the known you know the Pinnacles and the peaks in the group litigation order they were only given after the judge asked four times for them post office first they said well hope think they exist the second time they asked were well they do exist but they're own by fitsity the judge pointed out to actually know you own them is they not relevant and at the full time of asking the judge basically said no bring them I'll decide whether they or not they

brought in tens of thousands of pages of no NE logs and people callusing pigs they' actually ask whether they there were any issues L aogs for example and they denied there was any issues but Andy dunks he also turned up um as well as an Chambers at leting trial as well GTH Jenkins was on the hook to go to cost got called off at the last moment but I think might be the witness statement of that um she was sentenced to 15 months in prison in order to pay £40,000 which is pretty pretty um it a son's 10th birthday she was sent down she was a little over egn yeah that what disgusted me um here's an email just after got um

prosecuted this is from J Singh who's a senior legal team in in the post office notice the the actual B there attack on Horizon not W we've naed another thief attack on the horizon it was all about protecting The Horizon's reputation that's why they went after Lee Kon so badly because he was talking to other subass Masters and saying I think the computer system done this and they all start to believe it so they had to shut him up and they had to do the same with sea they couldn't see Horizon being blame for anything because otherwise all the other sub mon will start blaming it so attack on Horizon why would you put that not just that the considerable

expertise of Gareth Jenkins of f we were able to destroy the K proof by not giving it to the defense um yeah very little respect for those people mind anyway not all bad news she served four months and after two months of being released she gave birth wear an ankle tag some dignity in that I think and more importantly though on the 21st of April 23rd of April 2021 she along with 38 subst Mar were clear this is where four page um Marshall and ni coming to their own because whilst 309 people were cleared um they also went for a second line of appeal the second limb which was their convictions were affront public conscience which basically meant that it

could bring the judici to dis repute it should never have happened so they were cleared effectively twice her Tracy F jenet Skinner uh they crossed that that cleared line and they CED on running um so those three legal professionals did fantastic work in that and that's why they definit need mention so second site this is where second site really comes to R because in 2015 they released their report there the 27th version their actual reports and 1411 I was going to mention that there because it says the document refers to correcting live data now this this same the jits and the post office denied were possible they said that data is integrity can't change it

but there it is it's on post office legal paper for October 2010 saying they could five years previous this report being written a couple of days before SE mis's trial surely having access to R data be to change stuff is uh mentionable in call someone else had access to the system possibly it also goes on say about this receipt and payments mismatch error which it says there joint meeting post office in August 2010 it wasn't it was October 4th the reason know it's October 4th is because in Justice phrases letter to that's King to DPP it mentions two letters there 29th of September and the 4th of October here is the letter referring to in a meeting for 29th of

September which mentions G Jenkins wrote it rece some payments m m and it's talking about what they need to talk to the post office about in their meeting here here the meeting with the post office on SE 4th as you can see Jenkins is there John simp we saw earlier is there and it basically goes on to say about the reason payments mismatch bug what it basically was a bug that basically this is what it says the branch appear to ADV whereas in fact it could be a loss or gain so T purposes some March day it balances that should have been suspicious enough but the very fact that b back can go for a few weeks

and then suddenly you get hit with 20,000 loss you completely unaware of it there were loss is accounting or dur a week second of all if basically accoun system is out sync with their main branch but as why know complete loss of Co in the Horizon system by branches yeah 2010 it's bit late for that but yeah if branches if the could branch is ammunition to BR Horizon and potential impact one legal cases where branch is of disputing the Integrity of horizon data like the one that's about to happen in a week's time you see a Mis um offered three solutions um the first one's the interesting one which is basically hits will have to manually

write an entry into the local branch to account and yeah this could basically be seen as tampering but if you don't have remote access to that data how can they possibly do that this is like the post direct to 2019 in fact Paul of vels was actually in front J parliamentary Comm 2015 sitting next to Ian Henderson who was laughing his head off her poel is saying it wasn't possible in front of the Parliamentary committee the L to that actually on the same pages but links to all the the numbers there goes on to say the ability to write and amend gr records sent the post office constantly denied but here we have in 2010 a document says forits in post

office directly amend grants data about government sub poost mes so how do we know that luckily V Jitsu may not be good at making stuff but they're very good at documentation as it transpired we've seen that earlier so we got some Dy documentation what that basic says is they had unrestricted unaudited privilege access at system level to any system across the whole estate including post office P6 basically they could go in from a few terminals in the bral building and they had the ability to create amend or delete any transaction nothing will be locked the Post Master would not be aware that a remote connection is being made now I'm not saying this happened it's possible okay I've got no evidence

to say this happened but safe result you got fitu employee had access to that machine he has a postm mate I will delete ,000 of cash transactions we'll go 500 on it that £5,000 never existed now I'm not saying that ever happened got no evidence to say that ever happened right I also have no evidence to say it didn't happen but there um so um the ability to you know get keymat and other information off the system but here we have in 2003 we three 2002 an Intel saying fitsu had that level of access un audited privilege level access remember you don't have to be technical to working C SCH but you don't have to be understand that's not

good goes on to say that obviously identifies potentially be put this what do they do about it yeah not much didn't become a problem Injustice Fraser's judgment December 16th 2019 it mentions it and it mentions in 2019 October they bro chain S called the P Pua sorry privileged user access where it now logged the administrator account was logged on and it logged when it was logged off what that administrator did during that six years we don't know but you know we know they were there it's like really yeah this is the Jud for post this is the 23rd of April 2001 um that there is Hamilton this is a bit above the sub word um that is Julian Wilson he

died unfortunately before he got B was cleared as his wife that's M Thomas M Thomas was a postmaster sorry he was a postman at the age of 18 age of 30 he got married and him and his wife took go to the Post Office and ran it for 30 years 42 years he for the post office he was joed for a theft of £10,000 he was also a PR cry counselor his local counselor he's very much involved in local community and he took him to court for theft and he spent his 60th birthday which is Christmas Eve in the world uh in prison he's got a book coming out so he book book's been released but it's in Welsh language the

Easters next month um which is being translated into English which definitely very good as Tracy Skinner as J fad these are the people we C that one day this is Justice Fraser who I've mentioned so often his guy does Iron Man tra on so fun he is no one's fa he was the worst judge the post office could get because not only was he clever he was skilled and he wasn't taking their um he was good but let's mention some of the people I mentioned earlier Dy dunks Andy dunks he something you don't want to hear like got judge saying your name followed by expressly sought to mislead me that's not good this isn't a judgment that you can read it this is

Andy dunks what's really good is Nick Wallace he wrote a book you know called the post office scan you should buy it it's really really good and anyway he wrote A Blog which basically said why hasn't fitsu sacked and he dks because he still works for FY not my words then we have um he has mentioned in the max Hill letter as well to dep depart prosecution as well um Steven Parker head of application security report for the post office um Mr Parker chose specifically to give the impression his first wit statement that fusa did not have the power to inject transactions in the accounts branches obviously know that not to be true 2002 they do it this is 2002 so he would have

thought he would know there but luckily Mr Parker clarified it either his second or his third witness statement that he had to supply to the uh that's Mr Parker he's retired from fitsu and don't he does now but yeah um so I'm winding up now so don't worry post office inquir is ongoing it's going to be on going for another year uh it's live streamed on YouTube and all their evidence is actually available on YouTube you can go back and watch any of the witnesses Dave the Destroyer seriously go fantastic and B publishing who um they actually published this book here by a guy called Nick Wallace it's called the Great post office Scandal if

you haven't read it I read recommend is literally every chapter is like three or four pages when I read it and I knew quite a bit about it same time I was still reading every page was literally a oh no oh for sake even I was saying that it's a cracking ball and one of you lucky people have it so I'm going to give it away also by proing also you a l of Badges and marks they're very nice people for me to give you guys so feel free come and get one of those if you buy it from bar publishing um some of that money will go to the Horizon fund which is a charity being set up for

the um sub Masters is to help with things you know City things for example pay for counseling pay for transportation even for example you Cinema tiic these people have been over and been over again with the compensation scheme they G dou again it's been horrible stepen Mok UCL London uh he done a computer pile um episode where he explains how the Horizon system is supposed to work and how it didn't work that's a really really good episode that 5 watch that University Ed was where Professor Richard moad and his teamor definitely go and watch that oh investiga the post office SP that's Nick W and Rebecca Thompson Nick wrote with G with a great post office story it's Avil from bar

publisher I definitely would recommend it and uh Rebecca Thompson obviously she wrote the first part with um the first computer weekly article which I definitely recommend great um great podcast definitely worth listening to they update it what Over Again by one in a while but I'm sure they'll be coming back and lastly uh yesterday that happened season Sinclair first case cleared in Scotland that is really really really significant because like to say it wasn't a private prosecution it went through the scotch system really good so rounding up now you've heard what you've heard I hope you're equally disgusted but more important when someone says to you about the post office orag thing you just need to say

to them at the post office vitu all of it it's all true it's not a myth it did happen it was real more so than the Jedi and with that there's the link it if you go to Twitter I put those two hashtags on it you will find that link watch the video you can go through every one of those documents in your own leure and here you go I probably don't have time for questions because I've been rting

to oh oh the book oh sorry I didn't men oh yeah it's a guy called Nick wallish wrote the book it's made by bar publishing would recommend

the juts who were blacklisted in 2012 by cabinet office following um they sued the NHS they they got walked off NHS contracts and they sued the NHS for £700 million technically they're not under the prer Fess for the government um but they still win contracts because they offer great value for money for the for the taxpayer um but they will go backlisted in 2012 along with group four security who did a fantastic job of security at the Olympics um but yeah no nothing's happened they've managed to largely avoid any kind of action because the post office is the ones who actually carried out legal action however at some point their staff will have to explain their actions in

court and why did you disclose stuff and that could be SE to be open if that direction come down from legal from more there's lots of stuff as well um might stop recording now um so for example um 2015 there three phases to the story the procurement was the running of it was 2015 when a cover up started and now we're into the compensation shot 2015 to 2018 there's a guy called Michael Keegan who was the CEO for Jitsu UK Islands he's married to Julian Kean who's the education minister at the moment uh 2019 he started a job at cabinet office overseeing the Wate contracts in the defense World luckily he worked for a defense company he just

happened a lot of contracts in the defense World short as coincidence but he also is UT director for a c called Center price International who you would never have heard of that they make desktops machines that if you work in a government Department that vs do the contract with they who suppli computers there's lots of things that need investigating I'm not saying that Michael King's done anything unall but it's it's just it's lots of things there so much interwinding I'm sure that it will come out but unfortunately the main focus is coming in the post office and it probably will be for another year or so

now this the SR dismisses regation Authority in barard BSB are um they're being very very say um blackluster