Fight, Flight, or Something Else: Breaking the Security Survival Cycle - Stacy Thayer, Ph.D.

morning excited to be here thank you for having me here so today we're going to talk about uh well surviving the security cycle and what I mean by that is stress the stress that in security industry people face what's unique about it and then how do you survive it how do you break that cycle all right so what's to talk about so we're going to get into burnout a little bit about what it is and what it does to you what's unique about the security industry and why it you should care why it matters the problem with a lot of the burnout solutions that in Stress Management cases that you're going to find uh and then taking those first

steps to reducing it when I called burnout taxonomy uh and then examples of Mo motivators pauses and thenice and then open up to Q&A so just a little bit about me a cyber psychologist uh I specialized working with in security company uh so been around bit by bit talk to various conferences uh actually my background is in organizational uh psychology looking at burnout in the intersection between technology and and business and humans uh host the cybery podcast my research gives Divergence and I stress factor just the chief strategy officer at Technologies and a professor of cyber psychology William juel and the question I always get ask what is cyber psychology though thank getting that ask

less and less but cyber psychology is the study of humans and technology in the intersection of the two okay so what is burnout so by definition burnout is a psychological syndrome that occurs due to Chronic emotional interpersonal stressors and I like to focus on that interpersonal stressors because that's related to communication between people so it's not necessarily the technology that's causing the burnout might not be the code that's not working the number of alerts that you're getting those are all incredibly stressful but what they found that really contributes to Verna are the relationships that we have that is what tends to drain us the communication that we have with other people so just by definition

burn out folks or is really triggered by the interpersonal interactions that we have I find that really interesting because those are often the hardest where it's hardest to make change so uh according to the to burnout model there we have our three responses so emotional exhaustion you feel drain your battery is empty I just can't do this anymore cynicism I'm that negative I don't want to have to do this why do why am I being asked to do so much and that kind of the bitterness and the frustration that sense of frustration and then professional efficacy why is this so hard I used to enjoy doing this I used to be good at this you start to doubt yourself you

start to not feel as confident about your abilities and what we found in in research projects I've done is that actually security and stream test highest in cynicism I'm not sure that's surprised to anybody but tend to be a pretty cynical group so and I'll share the slides out with these because I know some of them are Tex heavy uh I tried not to but I can't help it I'm an academic so why does this matter in the security industry right over we here today so you've got these high levels of mental workload you have to respond to these events a lot of times 247 and they matter they are important they're also often overlooked

talk about that you also have to anticipate cyber attacks what's happening what's going on you have to be aware you have to be alert what's going to happen at any time and so just being able to manage and and this is part of the technology piece but you are looking at okay what software are we using what is it telling us to give it too many false positives too many false negatives is this the alert that really matters or should I just be ignoring this but what if I ignore I'm exhausted just thinking about what you bu have to do right like um shortage in Staffing hard to find good talent it's I mean the economy is

rough right now it's even hard to hire good talent and F him um you're struggling FR place in the organization and I L to a lot of people where are just trying to roll out security policies trying to get Buy in from your peers we get our our model of the interpersonal relationships and burnouts and sometimes that can be the most exhausting because it can be the hardest to make Headway and a lot of times work isn't appreciated by the organization you've seen is a blocker why do I have to change my password can you reset my password if I didn't have to change my password so many times I wouldn't be bothering you so many times this may

resonate so high it friends out there uh or if you have to you know you're integrating new vendor well we have to put them through the security protocols to make sure we integrate it will we do that by tomorrow no all these conversations you may not be having but why does it matter what is burn does it even exist and there's a lot of people oh those were soft skills suck it up and this burn out does it matter well it does we find that when our security folks or it folks really anybody who was burnt out your alertness the quality of the work the effort that's being put in can start to diminish we're Human After All

and so that could lead to fatigue so now maybe that alert comes in care as much as you did when you first started or you're exhausted it's another night of there's another alert well the last 100 didn't matter this one probably doesn't either what it does errors likely of errors and operations the way that you're coding the way that you're entering things in how you're handling your job increase turnover so now you've invested in Talent now they're leaving they're exhausted they don't want to be part of the team but also you're losing then the loss of knowledge of the organization of who knew how to use certain software who knew you who knows your history who

knows where the bodies are varied in secur graveyard right when you get turnover that and that turnover number increases so does the number of people that know your security policies procedures and Insider threat is a huge issue as we know and then for you know your peers then redu security compliance if they don't care that's all it really takes right it takes one person to not care about security protocols more than they already sometimes say they don't care right but security practitioners have to care so what happens when people in security who are dealing with these unique factors of high stress low appreciation who are on the backand who are that defending force and sometimes

the only people in the front line are exhausted and there's nobody to tap out there's nobody to say okay you you take this I I can't handle it because a lot of times you're AR to staff so it's this big recipe for a lot of stress and I know I'm just telling you probably about your daily lives I will offer more than just empathy and I know your jobs can be really stressful and then the other piece though is when you're going over this it's almost like paoan right the alert goes off or something happens and you really get into this kind of like trauma response of it it affects your body it affects your physical and

mental being you get triggered okay I mean I don't know how many feels when their slack goes up I have to change my slack messages the sound of them every so often so I don't okay because I can feel the tension in my body when it when it goes off and the notification goes off and so when I said to me like can you please just you know okay but I'm not being chased you know by by a bear it's just an email and it's going to be okay but what happens is you get used to this your body gets conditioned to it the cortisol and all of this is happening it becomes harder and

harder to find peace and to de-stress because your body is conditioned to it and you kind of stop forgetting what being on edge looks like because your job is to anticipate what is out there that's a lot of pressure so the commonly found solution so okay I yes I'm I'm burnt out okay what do I do about it well what happens is go when you look it up go meditate change your work patterns look into Stress Management okay all right gr up good help go work out these are these are all good responses they are okay I just know that when you if I am burnt out and I'm stressed out and you give me something else about that to do

to manage that burnt out burnout feeling Behavior that's just one more thing I do when I think about going to workout I'm not like yay that's GNA help me with my Stress Management I'm like I need kid do nothing thing I'm not going to run unless I'm chased and then my figh or flight kicks in that's me but I know many people that that that is their good solution for it we'll get to how that works in a moment these these are very valid techniques super to burn up at a certain point to a certain degree realities for many of us looks more like this you practicing good selfcare I don't I don't what does it even look

like I don't have that right nope no selfcare we're drinking of listening to Slayer she Li and then I'm over here with eitting my emotions you ever see me walk by with a B of Arby something since she just gone

down so this is then where I bring in what what I call the burnout tonomy so if you're out here and you're in kind of relief and self-efficacy and you're doing okay you know oh I feel a little burnt out maybe I need to go for a walk and you catch it in time then great you're meditate you're you meditate away do all of those really great solutions that you're going to find what about when you're here when you are just trying to survive especially neone I co this with anxiety depression why a lot of mental health issues that are incredibly important and Incredibly relevant and difficult to sometimes talk about in the workplace difficult to find

empathy and compassion for so you're just trying to survive and you may even just be using unhealthy coping mechanisms do I want to go and work out or do I want to just pound back a few drinks and just and we anybody I mean been to Deon you been cat how are we parties I mean not I not a absolutely have fun sometimes it just becomes the way of what we do and we're not even aware of it we're not even at the point where you realize that when you go home and you're catatonic at night just what do I do where do I start that you're in survival mode and everything just seems bigger and harder

and said what where do you go from there how do you work it up so you can say okay let's go from survive to oh this is I'm bur down okay so that awareness you can start to recognize the triggers begin to understand it we'll talk about that in a minut and moving up then we exess limitations learning what boundaries are to get all the way out to that okay that piece of self-efficacy where you know your value you know how to put the boundaries up so you don't experience burnout you know how to you understand your own relationship with it so that's all fine and good that sounds like the promised land but how do we get there or

can we get there especially we're down here in survival mod okay so what do we do so what Studies have shown so something called social learning theory and was self-efficacy so social learning the is learning from observation this means observation in yourself in this particular uh instance watch yourself when are you getting upset like if you even for a day I I'm giving you what to do and I don't like to give to do people job but this is a small one just a little check of okay what what stresses me out when was I mad when did I get that feeling of tension like if you even if you just do a body check of like okay what's going

on for me right now where where am I uh if you've ever had this moments where something happens you're like your body just relaxes and I didn't even realize I was that tense that I was clutching my fist or my jaw was clenched or you know all of these pieces so let's have that that awareness that and then the belief that you can do it so when you remind me okay I can relieve stress and I can work this through and get out of the survival mode and this help I'm going to do it for what works for me what makes you happy when you you were thing for a second when am I my

best self and what does that feel like and we all have survival most mean I will go home and you at the end of the day I will play video games or if you're binge watching the show and for me I found out my survival rest that's how I get kind of from day to day to at least get the battery back up enough to go function for the other day but I'm not recharged by it for me personally what I found um is if I travel someplace like so I I end up I finally Dre the line and said I'm going to go on a trip by myself and I went to Africa I mean that's really an extreme

thing you can eat smaller things find a nice dinner there are many do but that's I was I'm a mom and twin so I had to go big so I came back from that trip re-energized and it stuck with me because that was my best like I I got to hang out with me just not having to take care of everybody else and and and I think back about that when I get stressed and I'm like right that's where I have to get to that that moment and it it okay how do I get there how do I get there without having to get on a really long airplane and leave for a week and you know be

that extreme so learn about yourself your relationship will burn out and your hidden triggers which we'll talk about and it BEC important is when you learn what those factors are when you realize okay this is what me upset this is what got me stressed out this is what I reflect back in the day we're going to look at what we can CH can't change and what you can do for you so it is asking you to do the work we know is hard but that doesn't mean I want to be very clear about this that anything is your fault because that's the Crux of it is that more often than not there's another situation that is causing you the

burnout it's either a manager a peer somebody's not doing what they're supposed to be do somebody dropped the ball somewhere and you had to pick it up every single day once you know every hour all the time you know somewhere somehow something is happening and there's tension and frustration and so how do we manage that it's like well why should I have to do the work they're the ones that I had to pick up the slack for and you you're not wrong can you change it can you impact it you can try but sometimes you're banging your head against the wall because that's who that person is that's their workstyle that's their management style so we're going to be talking about

what you can change and can't change so first let's start at the self-reflection at peace okay so your real world scenario of let's say got you don't have enough time you don't have enough staff for something that you need to do I'm you're overwhelmed by this NeverEnding list I mean really you don't it's not like you necessarily have a project and you're like quick that's done the next day there's another attacker there's another prevention there's things that you don't even know that are out there but you're feeling frustrated you're overwhelmed so you're your folks who go through the emotional exhaustion okay I will stay late I'm going to keep working as hard as I can to get done I'm

going to push myself as hard as possible going to run out of gas You Can Be The Little Engine That Could all day long but The Little Engine That Could had to take a break somewhere like at the end of it he kind of got to chill out somewhere like does that happen for you too can you can you find that place that you get to chill out the emotions that you may be feeling you're depressed but you're anxious you want approval your your sensation seeking the cynicism this this is set for management I am absolutely not stay ed5 if it doesn't get done it's not my problem this manager is a problem if it's it's the CEO's problem if they put

more budget into security we wouldn't be having this issue I'm not going to take ownership for this you get hacked it's not my problem not my company not my faults that's the one security as I said tends to to lean towards uh and then professional efficacy right you internalize it I used to love my job I used to be so good at this when I got hired I thought you know I was doing these pent test I was feeling successful I and then all maybe I'm not that good why is this so hard or why if I'm not able to to catch these things maybe I'm not going to use things pisses maybe I'm not managing things and that

doubt starts to creep in and you get that kind of feeling your pit in your stomach and you start feeling small and that one is up for me I was the the hardest one I work people because nobody should ever D your light and if you're feeling that and that's something to burn out when you're not confident and feeling good about your contributions and who you are as a professional there's nothing like feeling small that like to so I know it's easy for me to get here find a place that really resituates you maybe you know soon as hopefully the economy gets better and things work out and there's a plethora of jobs out there

but but keep it in mind change is scary we don't want to leave the organizations in the security but you are valuable there are places that are valuable always look to find places that set you up for

Success okay so what's triggering your burnout and you so trying figure out okay so which one of these are you and what are the patterns so emotional exhaustion what motivates you to push yourself so hard and I'm not saying that you push yourself we you know we have our over Achievers help people but if you're having a hard time where you're giving 247 to your job and you know I've been there I've been on vacation and work needs me and there's my family and there's my work and I've chosen my work I spent a wonderful not wonderful afternoon in Disney in you know on on a zoo with you know the Lion King Motif in

the background trying to solve problems with Team I was like this doesn't feel right to me and so I had to kind of question myself what was I afraid of okay if I'm not there and I take the vacation decisions are made without me then I'm not included then I'm not valuable I'm not seen as a team player and I would was in the cycle of what I call alizing the worst case scenario right so what motivates me to push myself so hard well because I you know I wanted to see as a contributor for some people in this this Cur with um the white night syndrome right I want nothing's going to happen on my watch I'm a sentinel and

I'm going to guard I take that very seriously it's exhausting right I mean cism when was the trust broken I'm going to assume that you didn't show up the first day of work being like well this stks I'm not going to help at all but somewhere along the line May with your manager with your team the trust was broken now is this one is the of the most challenging one because in order to gain back you have to be re-engaged and engaging a disengaged employee would be incredibly hard from a matarial standpoint not only because the manager may be the one who caused the disengagement but then because also what do you do to Reames them and if you come

in and say okay this is going to be different you only have so many times that you can do that before the team says it may be different but You' I've heard that before I I went some uh to a team working I team and they've been through three organizational development Consultants before me and I came in they said why are you different we've told our stories to you to to three other people before you what's what's different why should why should we believe you know that you're not just another Panacea and uh another another mistake and we ended up working it through it's good but it was because I had to look at each to them as

individuals and meet with them as individuals to their individual pain points the things that mattered to them and recognize which one of these three were they at and then look to the specific self-reflection of when was that trust broken okay let's go back to that and figure out okay what do we do about that and so especially with the cynicism cynicism grows you get one one employee a cic then they kind of hold together and it can really especially if if maybe you're more on the positive side drag you in because there's negative energy there now means that person if you've had that that person will walk from like Cube to cube or slap message to slap message if your remote

or not t oh I hate this I hate this I hate that and it get to be very uncomfortable for people and then you start seeing things and you're like I hadn't really thought of it like that before but now I'm seeing it through this lens and it kind of knocks you down a notch and you set boundaries and say I really want to have a positive attitude about this can we take some space and give it a chance so ask yourself in that self-reflection of then you know why did you stop feeling good enough what happened is it over time is it because of the way your manager speaks to you what is what are

causing those things specific for for you and then we get to once you figure it out what are you going to do about it realistically what are you going to do because there's a whole lot of things you can't control that trigger burn out and and I going say that any given time when you're feeling burnt out it's going to feel like 95% of the reasons that you're burnt out are because of things you can't control that's the crappy news that I have Flo here to deliver to you yay right okay so so what you toic work environment bad policies lack of support poor leadership and management uh UNS supportive HR where do you go you can't

go to HR and ask for help there's who who's there to help it feels like no one your co-workers and then of course the challenge you need to the security industry the way things are signed up uh set up and sign up those are all things we can't control they usually the things that Tri to most for now so what do we do all right so let's look at what can control I can control how I respond how I feel about it what can I do about it how do you respond to these triggers so something happens get really mad I'm sh like the only person who suffers when you're Ang when you're angry is really truly you if

you've ever help on to anger and then you're like oh I'm the one hanging on to this that makes it still exist and for good reason I'm not saying anybody is wrong to be angry to be frustrated but you bring it home ends up with your family I mean burnout it seeps into every single part of your life and it's not something you want to have I I don't know anybody that's ever been like yes burnout I love it give me more pain in that regard like I love it when I fight come home and fight with my family because I don't want to talk to anybody and my kids won't stop talking as much as I'm projecting

maybe and so so what is it you really got keep pulling that thread what is it that bother well I feel like I'm not hurt I have an opinion that I this this will not work management doesn't believe me therefore I don't feel like my opinion matters that I'm not valuable as a person oh okay let's go with that I'm not valuable as a person well that's not true but they're not seeing my value and they're not listening to me I mean that nobody likes not feeling listened to you or not feeling like or feeling like their manager doesn't care about their input but what can we do about it can't necessarily argue with the manager

change it you can but you only get so far so it becomes to okay what does this mean for me what am I going to do about that is it a conversation is it going to make a difference is it something can I disengage without not caring and becoming a cynic that's a very very fine line very fine line and that's when there's a difference between boundaries and walls okay you put up walls nothing's getting past that like that that's just it where you know boundary tends to be more kind of like okay I'm going to draw this on a chunk this is where I go too far and I'm willing to help but I have

these other things and then having that communication and that dialogue and to hopefully and I look look to managers and and well it does have to it does take a village so to speak of managers and organizations do have to work on their company culture to be able to create psychological safety where you feel comfortable talking about these things and being able to say look you I stayed late three nights this week I want to spend time with my family I need you know better balance the fact that California just you know when I they pass the right to disconnect for anybody's not you law that you get you actually get to step away from your

computer in your work and they legally let you at first I was that has that has to be a thing I mean have I just been really lucky to to have managers that okay to be fair I choose obnoxiously to Che my slack 247 but that's that's me being erotic that's not the expectation of I've had and I know that's a me issue but the fact that we need to actually pass a law in a state that you know that says you get to have a life legally okay uh it's there for a reason I know it is and that's the sad truth of it so again what can you control okay your selfworth your selfworth does not

have to be tied to your job you can care about your job you can love your job manager doesn't want to listen to your opinion you may be right they'll figure it out you said your P you've done your best that does not mean that your opinion does not matter you're kind of unhooking that and I know this is situational and I I'm pretty sure that if I was sitting in the audience right now thinking well in my situation I don't think that would really work and I would be kind of you know deconstructing what I'm saying going no my manager is different I can't this is give it a try give that self-reflection case a try to to think

about whatever it is because you all have different situations but there is somewhere in there you do have control you do have selfworth you do have value and so if you if you're not finding it in your work then find it where can we find it where do that best self and to try and find that and you know some of us we we want careers we want to advance we've love for some just want to you know get the money to live and to go and enjoy and they do their life and that's fine too everybody has different reasons which is why I encourage that looking for you where do you place your boundaries and how do you communicate

them and so it's something to think about if you're part of that negative group who's always complaining about work you're setting up a cycle of every single day this is bad this is bad this is bad this is bad and you're reinforcing that cycle not only for yourself but sometimes for others and if you've ever had you know clicks but you get like a little group that talks about one BEC still losing labor and then that gets really stressed because you know your co-workers are talking about you know just it becomes a toxic environment with gossip and judgment and you lose that psychological safety it takes everybody to really begin to make big change but

it can at least start with you and protecting and defending yourself and again it starts with that self-reflection and what's the story that you tell could you flip the story if we we line up okay here's my story my boss say this this this if for a second we take it not allowed to say anything negative tell me the story of your burnout in a positive way it's really really hard to do because you're mad and pissed off about being burnt out a lot of times or someone is wrong too but can could you do that what would that look like what would it look like to see the other side are there things that maybe you haven't considered with

the compassion and the empathy so your mental script and your narrative is something you can try and change we get into a pattern we tell the same story and when you as soon as you're looking at like do those that lens that's all that you're going to see and you look for those behaviors that reinforce it so so your thoughts and The Narrative of anger and resentment frustration you may not even realize it but you're telling yourself that same story is that's for you're what you're looking for and so it is that ask when you do the work say okay if I go in and I'm actually just going to put a pause on all the bad stuff because it's not

going away it's still going to be there but I'm going to really try and see okay that employee who never does anything that I wish they would just poor management won't get rid of them what do I like about that person how do they contribute to the team and then try and take that positive approach whatever it may be

this is a great moment for self-reflection how about that

I mean it's okay I talk to one okay my laptop and I have been fighting for a very long today now sometimes yeah it's okay I am sounds my my slid but still itself in I can definitely um continue speaking to and you have questions there'll be time the end to ask them so going back to that the taxonomy that I showed you the triangle that self-awareness of figuring out where you are on that are you in survival mode and so one of the things that um you're not going to get from survival to self-efficacy where you believe in it and you're at a good place and you're recognizing your triggers easily because if you're in that

survival moment to think about anything to even think about any of this you're not ready we're just not there you just start small small snackable bite-sized chunks you know it's one of those things like if you don't even want to get out of bed but you do just for a minute celebrate that one minute or as I tell myself okay if I work out and I can do it for five minutes it's five minutes that I wouldn't have before would the five minutes doesn't seem as overwhelming when I just started say five minutes and then I kind of end up okay now I can do 10 I do 15 you know just but I have to start

small because when I'm looking at something I'm like 30 minutes 45 minutes it's just too much and so the same thing with f have all sudden become not bur out you may always be tired you may always be stressed but what that social learning theory tells us ised yeah sorry guys

so and the other thing I wanted to do be open about the F we don't talk about it we don't talk a about mental health either we're getting there we're getting better there's wonderful resources mental health acts there conferences around talks like this thank you for being here and S and supporting uh non-technical topics like this because at the end of the day we're all humans and we all have to interact with this technology and make it work and secure secure your companies your organizations and get that human to human connection okay

startes it just start morning

yeah last thank you for your actually so this well frustrating wouldn't necessarily be emotionally mean it's frustrating it's annoying it's technology if someone were to come over here and start yelling at me like what do you mean in computer's freezing up something I that would that would like drain me from 100 zero right or if yall started walking out going this woman did not prepare for her talk she didn't know every slide memorized it's the tech uh that would be what would hurt not the technology the interpersonal interactions so one side the advice and the tips of know your limits know your goals protect yourself now anyway it's reasonable if you say okay I'm I get really easily burnt out I

think working one hour a day works for me that's probably not going to go very well one of the things I've learned about me for example is that I'm perfectly happy to go like to to be available and do things at night and stuff like that but I need to take maybe like a half hour break in between go do something to sit outside okay oh am my kiding I go to play a video game for about 20 minutes come back but I need those breaks because otherwise I will by the end of the day be exhausted if I'm eight hours straight so what okay and don't Be Your Own Worst Enemy okay I should have done this I should

have done that don't beat yourself up because then you're the one who's being mean and emotionally draining yourself and I always tell people when you start saying I should have I should have I should you should all over yourself do not do that you're just causing more pain don't do it okay ask for help identify the triggers and when you ask for help though come up with Solutions you want to have your a group for your say this is what's wrong what's the solution for it is there a solution there has to be some kind of solution not saying Mutiny but I'm saying that there is there any kind of solution very rarely is there

something that just absolutely nothing can be done to create change about this you know my hope would be that if you raise your and say you know actually I'm going to be vulnerable for a second and tell you that you know me being here all the time creates problems at home my kids miss me um what can what's the compromise a lot of times people may be receptive to that and if not you know you start pulling on the thread until it is then and then becomes the question is this the right fit because you get you know this this kind of one shot for for mental health to take care of yourself to put that oxygen Moun gone and it's

hard it's easy to say and it's scary to actually do know your triggers and know your own toxic Behavior what's going to what's going to trigger you because when you can recognize them and you know okay this you know what this this person just maybe I need to just take some space away from them um how can I work around that if not you know this manager this coworker what else can I do to protect myself set expectations be specific also about what is being asked to me is set the bar do you need to work 10 hours a day is that the realistic expectation do you need to work weekends have that conversation with your manager even if

they don't like it set the expectations so that you are aligned and it's even if you write it down on paper like okay can we agree on this because I'm having a hard time but I want to be able to you know help support what's something that we can negotiate as a contract to agree on this 42% rule uh I love sharing it because it makes me laugh um that you're supposed to be spending 42 of your per of your time doing something uh stress relieving and fun and sleeping and resting um if you find somebody that does that 42% please tell me I would love to meet them hopefully uh find what energizes you again beyond the coping

mechanism and you know what do you want what do you really want you may not get it I'm not I'm not saying you're going to get it it'd be nice if uh you know we we all got what we wanted but if you know what you want if you know what your if you can wave a magic wand iig if you could wave a magic wand and have anything be what it would be what would you do well i' fire that person okay well that may not be what you can do but what else can you do okay and and it's kind of whittling it down so so you're working back WS from where do you want to be and how can you get

there what can of all the past that you need to get there what can you control what can't you control so you can't necessarily can't control whether or not somebody works work with you but okay so then can I make it so I work with someone else okay no all right can I get to a point of like some kind of Zen some kind of Miracle where they don't make me as mad as they to typically do yes it's going to take a lot of work but yes you can sorry that ends up usually kind of being the case but when you get there and um you know someone once said make it a zero so it's not a negative it's

not a positive doesn't have to be positive you don't have to be friends and sometime rainbows if you can get it from a negative to make it a zero we're fine right you know what just make it a zero you get at least there your life becomes a lot easier because you're not fting back you're not retaliating negatively there's you're not mean it's passive aggressive okay this is my my coping mechanism this is my boundary uh okay so thank you uh all for talking I want to thank all the sponsors that are here for supporting and thank you staff and Tech introdu MC and thank you uh and then we have about five minutes that I want to turn a

Q&A y

say so first what I do is okay a boundary needs to be set I want to be Crystal Clear what the boundary is what the ask is what the ramifications of that ask is so you do your homework why you're asking for that boundary so and anticipate how you think it's going to be received and then communicate that all and communicate from a place of collaboration so you have this bound you're being you're stressed out and and the fact is managers we hope like I said for when you're stressed out you know what are the reifications that that boundary adhere to you become tired you may look for a new job you may Overlook an important security protocol you may

not give as much good the same level of customer service or uh support to your other co-workers you may get impatient so be it's kind of like a chess game almost when you set a boundary you have to anticipate how it's all going to be and be able to have empathy and compassion the people that it that the boundar is going to be set with because when you can anticipate what they may be afraid of okay I hear you I people want to be heard sometimes so much that they are screaming at you because they want to be heard and you can anticipate that they have their boundaries and you come at it from let's work on this together and you

may not it's kind of like bot ball right like you throw it and you're going to throw the ball at where you want that boundary to be and you hope you get close probably not going to be exactly the same but you want to get close and if you were working with someone and that person is just not going to negotiate to the point when you're like I don't care that this is impacting your life your health your mental health your family too bad you know sucked up buttercut that's what I really do encourage people like you know start asking yourself hard questions to make the hard moves because you you really not stress this enough I've worked with a lot of

people with bur out moving to that job when you're appreciated where you found your your your people so can do wonders for your mental health and it doesn't have to be an immediate thing something you kind of keep in the back of your mind but it should matter to managers that their security team is alert and happy and able to do the work because you're being asked a lot you I mean you know if you think about it just even from you know sending anybody to to military right you know they need to be arrested they need to be alert otherwise they will slip does that answer your question I little worry any other questions yeah you in the back then

based on your research do people ask they hate their job or they ha people they work with they work with you ever the they don't leave bad jobs they leave bad managers yeah and you know that's the 100% and you know that's what caught me you when when I first started looking at burnout and it's interpersonal relationships not the job you love the lot of you love the job that's why you're here you know it's why you applied for the job see you didn't start applying for jobs that you're like that would suck if I got it right so yeah defitely the people you had a question yeah so um I've been do quite a

few conversations because yes it was very

the common theme seems to be that there needs to be a lot of psychological change but how do we balance psycholog just

ask situation but then expect that culture is just going imag they sell because there's only so many companies that sa space but why not why not yes no I I mean 100% if I could wave my magic wand and and have the ideal solution it would be that organizations and Senior leadership and managers would really care about company culture too many times if I heard if they don't like it they can leave drives me crazy right and you know I when I give these talks you know I was think you know I got to find a place where I can give them to the managers where I can give them to the leaders because that's where it changes and I've

been I've been riding into companies and like okay go fix the team and I'm like they don't want to hear that no no to fix them not me it's like well

and so um unfortunately what ends up so the managers themselves what often not is is so if you're mental management you're getting it on both sides right so you've got unhappy employees but you're also stressed out in the middle and kind of caught between it like it doesn't it just rolls right down and it has to come from the top and so unless we can start getting Buy in and this is where the feedback can matter and I mean I've been in companies where you know gave the feedback and they say yeah if you don't like it you can leave okay there's nothing I can I can do about that and that's the helpless because yeah you can only cope for so

much and people do disengage and there's all the research in the world right that says if you care about organizational culture it improves employee production engagement satisfaction retention pretty sure I'm going to say 99% sure there is no research out there that says Bad Company culture is awesome for your production so why don't they care why don't they listen why am I still hearing like oh soft skills not a thing they're afraid of leaving behind the Draconian era y y i I actually um so my daughter is um she was just recently diagnosed with ADHD and dyslexia so they put her in an i at school and I say I said you know they ask if we have all these students

when I teach I have students that have special considerations and it's good I had that what iour AG he age and so what happens when we get to the workplace of this generation that have had these customized plans to how they learn go into the workplace so I was a big Champion for remote work before even like Co hit because I'm a big fan of know how you work and work to your strengths right because that's when know when you're productive know how you work now be productive be a you know be a good human then the rest of us that they're fine to fight the good fight there but don't take advantage of it but yeah they're they're afraid of

this this change and so what Generations that have these these customized plans as they should because I we're seeing it's good for these Generations the difference that it's made for my daughter to be able to have a little bit of time to work on read comprehension well I worry like okay what happens when she goes to work and you know they say we need this yesterday and they're like please I hope that we do grow into an environment uh so that's actually been kind of my recent like okay so so look at your employees and what are their needs what are their career paths a good manager should know each of their employees as people not just employees

they should know your career path they should know your why you took the job why you wanted to work there what they want what do you want to be when you grow up right like you know all of these things a good manager should know so I don't know how many of you are manag the sad fact you most people that come to these TOS are the burnt out ones who like please help us this is all this is what I can tell you to help you unfortunately until the manager starts showing up and saying how can I can you give a talk about how I can help my employees and keep them from being bured out PS can you help me get

more funding so that I can have enough employees and communicate the power PS on the board you know etc etc um when I can start you know see see more of those talks I think we'll start seeing real change I'm 100% with you you it's not this why I always say like it is asking you to do the work and it does fall on your shoulders it's not your fault 99% of the time that you're feeling this way your response maybe you give a chair up and thr because you're so mad okay that's your fault sorry you didn't you didn't help Factor there but you know you're not responsible for your company culture design but your attitude makes a huge

differ in hethy culture so even if you're or you're venting and you're kind of projecting that negativity you are actually feeding into the toxic workpl and you have to be careful about that not saying you're not justified but you may also be part of the problem okay I think I'm time go over it little bit