The Perks Of NOT Being A Wallflower: Networking For Shy Folk - James Riley

so I'm uh we had another talk you so I'm kind of a last minute replacement so I've delivered this talk before but it's like 15 minutes long so it's a little bit shorter but hopefully I've got a couple of anecdotes that Pat out a bit and you can ask me some questions afterwards so yeah this cor is called and I don't know how many people have read this book but the perks of not being a warflower um which is networking for shy folk like me so believe it or not uh I'm actually really shy I I'm one people what they call like an extrovert an extroverted introvert in that like most of my hobbies involve things like

Reading Writing drawing you know just hanging out on my own basically I'm an A Child um but I actually really like people I really like talking to people and that's kind of why I went to recruitment because I like helping people so by doing all these things I kind of came to the realization that like if I want to be a success at doing something that involves dealing with lots of people I have to get out of my shell I have to get out my comfort zone so I kind of developed a lot of like I guess little quirks and little techniques to kind of take myself out of my comfort zone and make me a more

sociable person so I kind of want to share some of those tips really CU I know quite a lot of people in in infos set that I talk to kind say how can you just talk to people all day when you're like really shy and I'm like well I don't know I just do and I kind of got a bit reflective and thought maybe there's some stuff I've learned that I can pass on and perhaps these tips are useful and I've shared these tips with a few people and they said they are useful so I'm going to share them with you so another thing you should know about me is that I love a meme so there is lots of memes in

this presentation um and some slides are literally just memes and I'm going to talk over them so here you go so um I also wanted to tell you briefly actually before I kind of go on to the first slide about my very first networking event which was oh I don't know like 12 years ago so it was one of those really forc ones where it was nothing to do with cyber um I got I was in a sales role I got put in a room with loads of random people and they said you for go over there you for go over there and network and I was like cool so I was like what do I talk to these people

about and they're like I'm an accountant they're like I'm a graphic designer I'm like I sell engines like and so we all had nothing in common but we had a good chat and I came out of there thinking H that's put not the best way to do networking so when I started kind of going into cyber security one of the things I was really conscious about is I wanted to be part of the community and I wanted to be yeah I was a recruitment consultant and I know if any of you have ever dealt with recuitment Consultants sorry if there's any in the room um but they're kind of bit like o recruitment so I was a bit like hey you know like I

like the same stuff you do I want to help you you know how do I kind of get that across so yeah I basically came up with uh you know the idea of networking of trying to do it in a way in which you know I'm just trying to basically get to know you find out more about you and hopefully we can help each other in the future so every role I've ever had this does not to sound cocky but like I just I've kind of done it through networking I've not really applied for a job I've kind of met people at conferences who said hey you're cool or that I've kind of found a job and I've known someone

there and I've said hey and they said hey you're all right do you want to come work here like yeah okay so you know it's not a popularity contest but I think you know if you create meaningful connections with people you never know where it may take you and I think I've got a couple of anecdotes of people who have been on that Journey um and have really you know used networking to get out of their comforts Z so I got so this is really cheesy stuff but you know you need to be at the table to eat like I always say like if you're just applying to jobs blindly or I don't know if

you're just talking to people you know you're never going to like find the job you want like you have to be visible people have to know you exist like if you just I always say to people if you're just firing out like 20 CVS they're just just words on a page you know I'm not saying that you have to be like a social butterfly but I think using like The Limited tools you have there's ways to really kind of make yourself stand out a little bit so one of the I always like to say like one conversation can change your life so I'm just checking he's not in this room before I tell this story but it's a good

story um so there's a chap I met um at bsides London back in 2017 so um I was very I was very young in my cyber career and I was talking to this chap on LinkedIn an island and and he said hey um what cool networking events are there I was like besides London he's like cool can I come I was like yeah all right we'll go together so me and this person went to bsid London together we walked around a little bit we saw some STS we actually saw immersive Labs there actually that's the first time I met them um that's the company I work for um now and uh we kind of went our separate

ways I kind of forgot about each other throughout the day so the next day he messaged me and he said oh I had a really good time I was like oh cool what did you do he's like I got a job interview and I was like how did you do that and he said well I was sat at a table with some people who were talking about cyber security so I started talking to them and we got on well and one of them was like Hey I'm hiring for my team would you like to interview and he said yeah right and I said let me know how it goes two weeks later he's like James I've got a job off and I'm

moving to the UK and I'm like how did you do that he I just foke to people and I was like cool all right well it works so yeah it kind of shows that like having the the right conversation can really yeah take you to that next level so I think a really important thing to do when you're Network is finding out where you want to network like don't be like me go to a random event where you're like hey let's just meet graphic designers no offense and accountants no offense you know let's actually go to something where you're going to meet like-minded people like bides for instance where everyone is kind of like I always think to myself like everyone's

here for kind of the same reasons like we all like cyber security we want to keep the world secure and in our own little way so if I think to myself if I strike up a conversation with someone there's about an 80% chance that we will have have some common ground like we're interested in something similar so I say to people like identify Meetup that meets your needs like you might want to get into software development so you think well I'm going to go to a software development Meetup I know it sounds really obvious but you think well like minded people in the room like hey there might be some Junior professionals there who have kind of been where I've been

who might have some tips I could be friends with them you know don't do what I do again don't go to a cryptocurrency event yeah and I mean I had a lot of free food and drink but I learned nothing and nearly got roped into a scam so you know you got to pick you got pick you got that's not a story we'll tell but you got to pick your you got to pick your battles really so um there's lots of like smaller meetups there's not just big events like this like there's there's there's Defcon chapters there's small meetups around in Birmingham in Bristol in in chelam there's lots of smaller things you can go to and what

you'll often find as well is that I kind of write this down you leave your certification at the door like you know you sit next to someone you talk to them no matter how senior they are usually they'll say you know I've got time for you like I'll have a chat whereas if you go to quite a big commercial conference then that person's probably trying to sell to you so they might not have as much time whereas if you're at a smaller Meetup they're like hey let's just chat you know let's get to know each other a little bit um so I'm going to give you some tips on I guess how to approach like if you've

never gone to a networking event or if you're like hey I want to get a bit better at it like what should I do so the first thing to do sounds really obvious is research so as I said you you don't just want to research the type of event you want to research who's there so it's a bit like you want to know you know you want to know who you're going to meet you're not going in there obviously to specifically meet people but you might be like hey that speaker is really interesting I want to go because that person's speaking and there might be other people from that company there so you'd have a look on LinkedIn

and you'd think hey maybe I'll message the speaker I've done this before and say hey looking forward to your talk you know see you there and I've actually made I want to say friends but like acquaintances through that where you know you meet them they say oh thanks for coming to my talk and you get to know and F hey they're human as well you know it's all good like you know they're super smart but they're cool you know and what you'll also find is that suddenly you've got a connection there you know you've got someone that you know you can talk to that you might find at other meetups and what you'll often find in cyber security is that it's

quite a small community you'll see a lot of the same people especially if you go to a b-size event but that's not a bad thing because people start to get to know people will kind of say Hey you know they're in the circle of trust they're actually really actually interested in this thing like that I'm interested in as well and all of a sudden as I said if you're applying for jobs you're not just words on the paper you're a person that oh I've met them they're okay you know I can vouch for them so I think one thing that I found very effective is not not just bringing a friend but making a friend so I think

when you're you know when you're kind of not you know if you're new to cyber security sometimes you like I don't know anyone like I read a couple of years ago about a group for like an online I think it's a Facebook group or something for music festival goers who wanted to go to gigs but they were on their own and they were like I don't know anyone else who likes that type of music so basically you could post in this group and go I want to go to this concert and other people would go come with us and I was like what a cool idea maybe you could do that in cyber security as well so

something I still do is I will shout about events I'm going to so I'll say on LinkedIn hey I'm going to this event hopefully I'll see some people there or I might even message someone who might be interested and say oh did you know this is going on down the road and they might go no that sounds good do you I'll see you there and all of a sudden you're thinking hey like there's someone there that I know I'm not going to be alone it's fine I'm going to go into that situation and that person might know other people and all of a sudden you've got a couple of friends you know you're like Spider-Man hey hey it's all good

and it's all fine and I think you know it's it's just you again it's all about making that human connection so and this is like just talking I it sounds really silly but again like the whole Wallflower thing like again this is quite embarrassing I'm telling the story but one of the very first cyber meetups I went to I um I went to this Meetup I was there for two hours I spoke to no one I literally stood in the corner like this I was like you know a bit like when you're to dance you're not scared to dance with someone you know you just kind of like looking around I'm like I don't know what I'm doing here this is

so awkward I kind of left there and I was a bit like I was on the train home was all in London I was bit like oh my God what was I doing like I need to actually talk to people I can't just go there and chill and think people are come to me so like again like and there's ways of talking to people like I've been at events where people come to me and basically pitch they go hey I'm blah blah blah blah blah I'm like like hi I'm James you know so I think it's about just you know taking the time to get to know people if you get into a conversation with someone I know it

sounds quite obvious but I think just finding out about them like and naturally they will be interested in and again it's just building connections and and yeah having good conversations so really another I love this another really important thing to do is follow up like it sounds a little bit salesy but like again if you found some interesting people like connect with them on LinkedIn after drop a note saying hey it was good to meet you maybe see you again you know if you've met someone who I always say to people like you know it's good to associate with people who are doing the job you want to do so if you're a CIS admin you're like

hey I want to be a junior pentester maybe I will speak to Junior pentesters who are like one year ahead of me in my career and maybe they will pass back knowledge or they will tell me about hey my team's hiring or oh Sam down the road has a job you know so I think it's really important to kind of not just go to an event and go right been to an event that was great you know it's to follow up and actually stay in touch with people you know again there's loads of people I've met who can say hey I saw you at steelcon did you know that b like I found out about bsize Manchester

because I went to biz London a few people said hey there's a bze in Manchester and I was like cool are you going they're like yeah I was like I'll see you there so it's just little things like that and it again you build up a friendship group you build up a mentorship group as well you build up people who will share knowledge people who will help you and maybe you can help them as well because you have your own info to give as well and networking is an ongoing thing don't expect immediate results like as I say it's it's bit like a friendships and a romance these things take time like you know you're not gonna walk I went to

meet up with a very good friend of mine and he walked out he said I didn't get any jobs out didn't get any jobs out of that and I was like what that was not the point he's I'm not going to know meet up like that it's like you don't come out with job offers like you got got you know you go in there to meet people like it's a meet up not a job up so you you know these things take time you know you build authentic relationships you know relationships at the last of years there's people I still speak to that I've met once like and I just chat you on LinkedIn about stuff

and you know we get to know each other so I just feel like there's just loads of small things you can do to improve yourself and hopefully that has been useful knowledge I'm going to leave you with one more meme which is my favorite meme I use this a lot um I'd like to thank you for listening and I wondered if you had any questions for

me so so when you recruit people uh in your role um how what what kind of percentages would you say are people you've spoken to before at events or networking and how many of them are kind of like Co CVS that's a really good question so I'll just go sideways a little bit and this will make a bit more sense so before I joined the massive Labs just recruiting exclusively for massive Labs I used to be require for a recruitment agency and I used to recruit penetration testers so I had a very specific thing so I would just talk to penetration testers all day and about stuff like that so I kind of got to a point where I

knew lots of people who had very similar skills so often if a client came to me and said oh I've got a job I'd be like I know four or five people for that you know already I don't really need to do anything I need to say hey so and so this would be quite good and they go tell me more James you know um so that's one thing and I still have that Network I can tap into but I think I kind of say those are the people I would go to first if that makes sense like if for instance you know we are hiring at immersive Labs my first thought is who know like who

have I met or you know who has reached out to me like sometimes people just literally it happens quite a lot someone reach out to me link to say hey James you know merci lab seems really cool you know if you ever have a project manager role or something like that let me know and I'll go okay and then a month later I'll like got project manager who's that is that person you know they reached out to me so you know there's little things like that or but so I think it's I know I think that's the first thing to do but at the same time I think if someone's got the right skill set like a cold just

reading a cold CV is you know it's still good like if you still got the skills you know it's still good but I always think to myself my default is always like who do I know like that could be good for this but at the same time you know someone's very impressive and they they reach out to me then it's good so yeah if that's right or not but what is the one thing that you look for in a networking event like if you're going to go do research and you want to attend on what's the one thing that you look for can I say more than one thing or I think I think that the talk is is

like a is quite like what is the talk about like is there something interesting and Innovative or sometimes tongue and cheek like if someone's talking like one of the first talks I ever went to was in London and if some I still speak to now he did a talk talk about it's talk about American football and like instant response and I thought to myself that's interesting cuz at the time I was really into American football and I was like okay and I actually spoke to him off the talk and said that was a really cool analogy and I like how you turn that into a talk so that's a big thing for me I quite like that but I

also think like what kind of people will be there like I think you know the diversity of the event is quite interesting like different people from different backgrounds you know different you know all sorts that that's really interesting to me cuz I don't want to just go to meet the same people over and over I want meet different people I like meeting people I want to meet new people you know so I think those two things I'd say is is what interests me the most and I think hopefully interests other people like you know I think if you have a good on liner for a talk you can say hey I'm going to see this talk so so people go

that's interesting you know so yeah um so month or something thatal there's a cyber Tuesday me group thing which is primarily a networking thing and they also have talk but the talk information is announced very late I've never been to one we'll fix that people in the room go to these I run it it's not a trap because I never know what I'm going for so we have a very specialized format so sorry to do a small little pitch but it's F funny enough this is where your talk came from because you came into this for us which I really appreciate 8 16 minutes but all of our talks are ones that our community submitted so a lot of

the times it's simply that I am still finding a speaker because as much as I love them I find two per month and um getting everybody or we'll have a cancellation so our goal is especially looking into the next couple of months we won have one for October because the conference um is that we will be posting uh ahead of time so yes I will do come along there will be thoughts involved and amazing people stood in the corner talking to nobody no plus you have to do with me I won't let you sit in the corner no one stands in the corner there is no corners name is Iana Iana what's the name of the group again uh it's uh

Bristol and B cyber oh sorry no that's good that was soor like roen we had it happening right there we question interest overcome um awkwardness when you when you're networking anything because like you come across being a really really buing person and sometimes might be like too much you might get somebody how do you make people feel or how do you adap to the type of um person the that person giv that's a skill yeah it is a skill like that's really interesting question I kind of kind try not to talk about myself I suppose I try and listen to them and find out who they are because I think like I'm not that interesting I'd rather know who they are

like why are you interested tell me who you are even if you work in a shop I'd like to know what what shop you work in what aisle you know like you know like that's the way cuz I get I get

some fresh produce or C you know but but you know but it's true because I think like the least awkward thing is for someone to talk about themsel I suppose like if you're like I don't know I always like say oh what do you do you know tell me about you I've had my day's been all right how was your day you know I know just something that's not like oh I'm James I know no one cares what who I am I want know who you are like and then naturally you'll want to know who I am and then I might talk about that we might talk about the weather or films or something else you know I don't know I

try and just I don't know I try and make it non awkward by having them talk to me I suppose really and just try and be like open and appreciative and listen and not just go oh cool okay as next you know and just actually engage with them and ask you know be be active listening which is a skill like I used to be terrible at it I'm hopefully better at it now but you know I think it's just don't know just being curious about people that's always say like be curious about people I think that's yeah can can I add on to that go for it one of the best things you can do at a

networking EV sorry I literally do networking for most of my jobs um everybody is as awkward as you but there's a thing called open twos and close threes so if you have attended a networking event by yourself look for people who are standing in groups of two if you approach someone as a group of three it's a closed off triangle and it you'll feel even more Awkward if you find two people just say oh do you mind if I butt in and let them do the talking and you'll naturally fold into the conversation it is especially when you're just starting out with networking one of the best things you can do about not feeling it awkward and you're not

then sitting out by yourself and by then of it you've met two people and not just one all about returns like yeah pretty I see people do it all the time it's great sorry I'm just going to interrupt like literally say I'm just going to interrupt but it sounds interesting or I overheard literally any excuse to kind of but in no one's going to find it off I promise I'll do it to someone who's in here later and you'll be like oh I see what you mean sorry no I think like something like sorry going like really geeky but like something I used to really like doing is like I used to sound Prett weird looking back I was like 18 when I

used to be at University I read super shy and I used to go and like when there was a lecture on like on S apart i' go and sit near someone which sounds like be like four people there like one person go sit near that person and basically I just start a conversation about something random like oh I got a Subway early or something like that you know and or just two people be talking about something like one time I sat next two people and this about Final Fantasy I love Final Fantasy and I was like seven eight or nine like you know like just literally like eight you know and all it was like what I mean like it

is eight is the answer but like you know and then all a sudden I was like oh now we're friends you know so now we know each other so I think it's just and it's the same the networking like I always said about bringing a friend like if you bring one person you know and evely that person will start other conversations not with you and then you can go oh I'll join in this conversation cuz I know one other person and it's oh now I know a third person and you just almost like roll around you know so yeah I think got one more question can we do we time yeah you're right are you

fine going thank you again

yeah I think it is and it isn't like I think again not to talk myself I'm trying not to but like when I first started in cyber like I didn't know anything like I just went to events and I just listened to people like I would just you know I was a junior like I was like you know tell me you know I just would have convers I think there's still people I just have conversations with people like there's so many people I meet at events and I started talking to them thinking who is this person and then we connect on LinkedIn I thinking oh they got like no experience or they're a graduate you know I'm like I

didn't know that because they're just a person like you know I wasn't there to like check their qualifications I think you have to and it is a skill like feel like you belong like just because you don't know as much as everyone else doesn't mean you don't belong in the room in the conversation like you know you're there to learn everyone's again like what I said before everyone's there for the same thing to learn something for the Meetup like you don't go to meet up because oh you're interested in the topic or you want to meet people like you're all there for the same reason so I wouldn't look at it through that lens and I know that sounds quite difficult

I'd look it of like I've come to the same thing to learn the same thing as you so that's how I would approach it and hopefully the more you do it the more confidence you would get so yeah what you said even now you always like back

always a lot a lot of are or remote so how do

youe memes yeah in all honesty gifts and memes yeah and emojis but no genuinely I think slack channels like having like channels at work that aren't just work related I think like there's people that I lit met that I just talk to like all the time about stuff you know and I think like you know I think it's just you things like that which can Bond people and then when you do meet in real life you've got like oh hey you're that person I send me get solid memes whatever you know so I don't know it's just I know sounds a bit silly but like I guess things like that and yeah I guess just

try it's tough I guess when you are fully remote and everyone else isn't but I justess just finding those alternativ channels or even setting up like groups like saying oh hey let's you know let's have once a month let's have a don't know a chat you know like literally like let's just get some stuff off our chest or let's share some info like let's do a lunch and learn like just little things like that and I don't know I don't really have an answer but hopefully that's useful virtual coffee mornings really a good one it sounds really really really terrible to be like hey let's just sit on a teams cour cup of coffee but I promise it really does help

um and it uh always best in those kind of meetings to put work to one side and actually have a conversation about something else because otherwise all you're going to do is talk about work and yeah talking about work is great when you're at work but you're not going to be able to get a better working relationship if you don't know that person yeah we you come from college or university and so you've got loads of social skills but no practical work experience so talk about football if you're into football I'm making a real big assumption there but so one place I worked at before had a like they called it like donut mornings and basically

everyone just put their name in and it drew people together to have a conversation um so but like the CEO of the company would also do it so actually you could be an entry-level employee talking to the CEO not necessarily about work or anything like that but just chatting and stuff like that builds up loads of good relationships because it's putting people outside their comfort zone as well and both people are outside their comfort zone which means they bond over being outside of their comfort zone so it's a lot easier to kind of like go well we've got to talk to each other for the next 15 minutes so uh corporate mandated fun chaos no but that that is really good

like again like if you're you got a mutual thing of hey we're both having an awkward conversation this is fine you know then you'll remember it as well it'll be memorable so yeah question oh sorry hey okay so when you build a

network do you have any advice way to do that yeah to I kind of missed that out so sorry um I think one thing I used to always do is I still do it to honest it's just it sounds really silly but just like like and comment on people's posts on LinkedIn like if you're already connected to them LinkedIn is one example just say oh this is like sounds cool or it sounds insightful just something to kind of it's a bit like hey I'm I'm here you know because you know you start to be more visible and just little I mean I wouldn't say go tagging people and stuff necessarily cuz that can get a bit bizarre cuz like what is

this those just meme tag me in um it's quite funny but um I think just little things like that or just kind of what I mentioned before like again sometimes if I'm going to an event like say I went to an event in birmingh I think I know like you know Jenny lives in Birmingham do Jenny want to go to this event like you know I hey Jenny do you want to go to the SP I'm free on yeah sure and I'll bring Paul okay cool suddenly you know and little things like that just just show that all like oh hey like you know little things like that just saying oh this is coming up and just they can they

say no you know or I'm not interested or not reply but you know just little things like that I guess just like any like any friendship isn't it like just not constant contact but just small small gestures I suppose um but that's I mean that's one way it works for me it doesn't work for everyone but I feel like that is quite a good way so I think the one thing that you just said is it's about authenticity yeah and that is really important everything that you talk about is very much from your point of view which which is great but it is remembering that some of us are more Awkward than others and it has to work for you but I

guarantee you it can't be yeah and as I say my way is just my way like it's not again it doesn't work for everyone let just say all different levels of awkward um but I feel like hopefully it's something and again like different things work for different people like I don't like football I'm not going to lie and like the amount of times I've gone to things think everyone just talk about football all time so I just try think oh but I still want to be close to these people so I just try and steer the conversation in another way and even if it fails and goes back to football I think at least I tried you

know now I just stand here awkwardly and just say random things like penalty you know stuff like that oh God what shot that was on Friday which one oh you know that team that one shot oh what a shot yeah so goals goals for days so yeah um it is nearly L is it maybe we should go and eat thank you