BSidesATL 2020 - Protect: Diversity in STEM panel

all right good morning everyone and welcome to the besides Atlanta 2020 protect track I just want to take a minute to thank our sponsors for their support this year they've been super great with this transition to a virtual conference and it's it's been awesome so the sponsors are at the diamond level Warner Media at gold level we have Kennesaw State University Cole's college and the KSU Department of Information Systems we've got a Bishop Fox coal fire genuine parts company and NCR and at the crystal level we have critical path security and synopsis silver level we've got Aaron's binary defense Black Hills correlate and guide point security runs level we've got NCC group and our in-kind sponsors RBC Council for their

online training and secure code warrior for the virtual CTF we'd also like to thank the following individuals and organizations for contributing to our raffle prizes crosshair information technology Joe great offensive security and pentester lab and now I'm going to hand it off to Sonya who will be moderating our diversity panel go Sonya all right good morning and thank you Patrick 1a once again thank all of our sponsors that are bringing besides as I understand it it's been a great conference so far and we're looking forward to this session today and so with that we'll get started with a few introductions I guess I'll start with myself my name is Sonya Tosun and I am on the faculty ican I saw State

University in the Kohl's College of Business I teach business law business law professors so I teach business law employment law and negotiations those are my subject areas so don't hold it against me that I am a lawyer but I also serve as our director of diversity relations for the College of Business and if you don't know what that is that just means I work on diversity initiatives within the College of Business particularly to make sure that our students have been of in welcoming environment but also to propel the next generation folks and business information and security included and making sure that there is representation in all kinds of ways so that's me I'm gonna pass it off to the

rest of our speakers and I will start with miss Kelly Dotson and then you will go to miss Carla Pham and then we'll go to Marcus Montgomery hi everybody my name is Kelly Dotson Sonya thank you for bringing us in here I work for Ernst & Young as a security consultant prior to that I have just a myriad of versaille diverse experiences in quite a few different industries I am new to security I've been doing it for about two years and I went through the Kennesaw State University program got their bachelor's in information security and assurance which I think several of our other panelists today have done very same as a wonderful program and I

immediately was recruited by dy and cut my teeth it's Terry there I'll be very happy to answer any other question was about my background but I think in a nutshell that's it's kind of a good overview thank you hi I'm Carla I currently work for Ernst & Young as well and I'm a 20-17 Kennesaw graduate so I'm pretty new to security as well and upon graduating in two weeks actually immediately after I was hired onto data path and then I moved on to Global Payments in which I was recruited afterwards by the ey I work in their sock and they have been nothing but amazing I have gained so much knowledge throughout these past two years and I I

can just say that I am enjoying myself as a security analyst and learning from everyone else in there oh there are all of our security niches and that's really mean a nutshell as well before that is just different fields different industries as well so that's all thank you hello everybody my name is marquise Montgomery I am also a graduate of Kennesaw State University with information security and assurance degree graduated back in 2011 so near the near the beginning of the program I work for Splunk you might have heard of us as a principal security architect and prior to that I was a senior security consultant and basically we go out and help our customers with the software

prior to that I have worked in a sock as this acute security analyst and a security architect and briefly managed the sock before transitioning over to Splunk I really enjoy the field I've learned a ton over this time I think you get more from the experience but I got a great start at Kennesaw State just like the rest of our panelists so I'm looking forward to getting into the conversation today all right well welcome to all of our panelists we are super grateful for your time particularly on a Saturday morning but you know it's it's it's it's an interesting environment to do a panel but there's some great things about it as well I know I for one I'm wearing my

slippers we know that Marcus is that I'm excuse me that's a good thing and let me say this on that note we're obviously doing a virtual conference and what do we rely or being you know online we are right now this is a casual conversation and when I say that certainly the topic that we're talking about today our serious conversation is there you know somewhat heavy but I think that the path forward and most of the things that we want to do female have open and honest conversation so that's what we're going to do you know if you're in your home's I'm sure we all are you never coming licensed and enjoy this conversation openly we're going to laugh about

serious stuff and just have a great conversation so with that said I'm going to ask our panelists are going to respond to those questions and I'm going to go in the order that I see them on my screen that makes it easier everybody knows when they mute and unmute right so every question sort of started with Kelly moved to Carla and then to Marquis is what does diversity mean to you just generally speaking what does it mean sure so for me diversity is just the background experience in life it's different cultures it's different genders ethnicities and it is that life experience that you bring to the table wherever you are so diversity is that unique perspective when I think about

diversity I think about what a person has lived through what they've experienced what they know and look for broadening my own perspective and my viewpoint on on just about everything diversity brings knowledge to the table so for me diversity is mostly the same it's different gender racist preferences education backgrounds its what people's past and present personal and professional experience what they have and it brings different perspective touches table and I mean studies have shown that 87 percent of the best decisions made by team is through a diverse team so you know I I believe that diversity is exactly what I said it's just different things that you're able to bring different thought processes so for me I don't know how many of you

like to travel I love to travel and I've been fortunate enough to have seen many different parts of the world and one of the most eye-opening things for me is when I go somewhere I've never been before and meet people outside of the United States how different they are and it's not in a good or a bad way it's just different right and you your mind opens up to many more possibilities many more ways of thinking about different things different ways of solving the same problems for example I live in Atlanta and traffic here it is less than desirable right and I got to see how public transit works in other countries great so diversity is about that

representation and getting those additional ideas to me essentially you just don't know what you don't know and you want to allowed everyone to to bring their perspectives in to your business or in to the challenge that you're working on etc that's what the diversity really means to me excellent I love all of that such great perspectives on what diversity is in general now we're going to drill down a little bit more into information insecurities you all are working in various areas of information security what iversity issues are unique to information what diversity in is apart from our conversation about diversity in general that that's that's difficult question it is so diversity equity and inclusion within cybersecurity or information

security I don't think is that much different from diversity equity and inclusion in overall workforce I would have to say that within information security itself it's a field that has really just bubbled up I still feel it as one that's fairly in its infancy and we have a lot of IT professionals that just kind of got thrown into this so when you're talking about viewpoints and perspectives and background it's been and I want to the caveat this boxing it's definitely changing and expanding right now but I think it's been fairly won minded for a very long time and so now that information security of being a little bit more well defined it's got a spotlight on it we have more people

coming in with their backgrounds and experiences information security right now I think it's blossoming and we're starting to think about things differently we're starting to look at the same old problems that we've been having in iterative fashion and actually bringing some new ideas to the table so diversity equity and inclusion and information security I think it's very much like it is everywhere else but there needs to be a focus on really bringing in those people from diverse backgrounds whatever it is if you have a Bachelor of Arts degree in literature there's something that you can bring to the table you know it does not matter your background what you know you know it really it really is about bringing

bringing it to the table here within InfoSec I'm gonna pass it on Carla now it's a wonderful explanation and I agree it has been a problem for a long time however due to the fact that we are now more representative and the media has definitely put a spotlight on us and more people are hearing about it we have a lot more conferences and you know our graduates are spreading the word our professionals have spread the word more we're able to recruit more people I personally have spoken about my field plenty of my friends and now they're in the same program trying to continue to I'm trying to continue to bring in more women and definitely a lot more

minorities in and I and they all come from different backgrounds you know accounting and medico and they're they have all been doing so great in this so and I think is due to the fact that we all have a different mindset different thought process understanding of things and that hopefully will continue with you know each of our next set of graduates I know that personally with my experience in InfoSec knowledge sharing and the constant need and once that everyone has been to pull in more people into cybersecurity has been very large within my own network so I can say that the problem is there we still have an issue with diversity I in my team

there's probably only three women and in my past job I was probably the only woman you know working on the team and I was probably the only Asian person working on the team but now you know family and and I'm I'm happier I'm definitely happier to see that it has changed so hopefully as time continues to pass as with every field that we've seen it will continue to grow there there will be more women in managerial position there will be more minorities as well yeah I totally agree with what everything both of you just said and for me what it really means is Wow is an edge as we all know the information security fill is incredibly

complex there are a ton of different directions you can go within this discipline and it's hard to navigate that right and the other thing we have which I think we'll talk about later is a huge deficit in talent great for for feeling these open positions I don't think you're gonna be able to ask anyone and say that there's not enough jobs available right but for some reason even in that scenario diversity and inclusion and equality are challenges right and why is that you know so you it's a it's a hard question they ask and I think some of your major companies and even some of your smaller businesses are starting to ask that question and take steps to address it

but in information security I think it's even more of a challenge because of how complex the field is how people perceive the industry whether or not they feel like they've got enough technical expertise and skills to even dive in and I think the other thing that needs to be said that's that's specific to InfoSec is it takes a certain amount of courage no matter who you are to get into this field and dive in and spend the extra nights and weekends studying for these certs and things like that and you know that plus the challenge of DNI might discourage some people from even getting involved right so so the implications for our industry I think are a little

bit more stark than others even though I think it's a universal problem there are some specifics to InfoSec that need to be addressed and are in in many ways being addressed but we're we've still got a long way to go for sure all right thank you that is a perfect segue to my next question which is so

and what I hear from them is that people don't necessarily understand what information security is and so there's either stereotypes or misconceptions are just misinformation and so my question to you all is does that contribute to this lack of diversity is there less diversity because people don't understand what the field is and that of course might impact the air thought processes in terms of whether they can enter the field so yes marquees I loved what you just said and I really want to say I'm so jealous of where you are recording this from it looks like paradise yeah people don't understand what information security is I've been doing this for two years now and I have a degree that

specialized in it and I'm still trying to figure it out I went when I was first getting into the industry this was back when I was in school to a conference that was held by fortune 100 company very large conference and it was women and cybersecurity and they spent about an hour to two hours not defining what information security was but defining what it was not it is challenging to to understand what InfoSec is and for those of us that did not get into a stem background from earlier early on it's it's I don't know if I'd go so far to say a scary thing to try to step into this but it's definitely challenging I

came from a background of waiting tables and loading bags on airplanes and but my personal background I went through a divorce and I became a single mom and I realized that I had to support myself from my son and information security was one of those fields where it was job security we have a deficit you'll get paid and so I just don't head first into it with zero tech background whatsoever and I didn't understand what it was at all and I have really flourished because it's more than just technology I think more than anything it's a people problem and when you have those customer experience skills and background and that knowledge said that's what was

really allowed me to flourish in my role it's about communication and business to tech translations and so we want to think about the lack of understanding of what InfoSec is and then people here so have a secure and they see different numbers and the digital lines across the screen and the movies don't have open I think that definitely contributes to the diversity because you have people in different backgrounds that that only step into it because of past perceptions there needs to be a light shined on what it is and that's challenging to define Karla not gonna lie more keys I was wondering if that was really sorry but back to the topic well I do believe that the lack of

understand reduces our pool of our potential talent and just like Kelly I was in so many different builds I was in cosmetology for a while to support myself through college I you know during college I had my third kid in the middle of one of our hardest classes this professor greens class building got things everyone don't remember is his class so it was definitely and I remember I just had my baby and finished labor and I and then I went straight to his finest Wow in the hospital it's one of those things that one of those moments when I realized how much I enjoyed this field even though I came in with zero background technology I done

everything else just like other people I've been in the dental field I've worked in a warehouse for a little bit just because my parents said I wasn't allowed to when I was younger I did everything I could just because I didn't have that experience and to be honest I kind of stumbled upon InfoSec I was going for accounting my accounting degree here and I decided I didn't want to do it anymore that wasn't where I was happy and I moved over to InfoSec and assurance degree and I fell in love it's one of those things where you just you just understand that yeah this is this is where my skill set is going to really

help and and to be honest I think I was like everyone else where I thought well maybe it's more IT troubleshooting and it's at programming is it hacking and cybersecurity is just so unique everyone with regardless what skillset you had there's customer service here they need some programmers they need people who could stand things up to troubleshoot they need the engineers everyone I ain't have met so far has came from a different background I cannot say one person that I've met so far has Kay has grown up doing information security they but I will say that because of so many people's lack of understanding a lot of my friends were hesitant I mean to this day I am still wondering if I'm

smart enough to be in this field and that's just something that I've been told that you know you just continue to make it to make it and I've done that for quite a lot so hopefully I'm making it right now but I'm gonna pass it's March ease I think you absolutely are making it and I want to congratulate you on meeting your first person who grew up learning information security right so my path was a little bit more direct I actually knew in high school that I was getting into cyber security and and that's what I did so and but I will say though to your point that's rare I don't think I've ever met anyone else who can

say that so that that that decision in that process and and ending up on the path that I did for me was my objective but that is absolutely very very rare the the other thing I'll point out though is since everyone typically comes into information security from some other background or from some other industry there is a challenge in in being being motivated and staying motivated to see it through I know a lot a lot of people start the process and then fall out of it and I the the DNI aspect of it I think contributes to that to be honest with you you you do feel discouraged when you you don't feel like you have an ally or or just someone to

pick up the phone you know how useful it is to be able to have someone to call and just say hey can you give me a couple pointers on XYZ you know or if you're if you're going into a new situation and you you want to make sure you're fully prepared and it's just nice to have a friend available right and I it's a challenge especially in this industry to have because of that that challenge we have with D and I so the other point I really wanted to dive in on is the the the lack of understanding of the field itself contributes to this and there's so many different areas there's the the the red

team the blue team they're the compliance side and all the things that come along with that there's whether or not you want to be a penetration tester or working a saw or and and I've I've had this conversation with several people that are breaking into the field everyone wants to do the poll sexy you know command line breaking into stuff Metasploit all of that and they don't really realize that you can't just start there there's a whole lot more you need to learn about operating systems and networks and process and I loved when I was working on the osep how there's a focus on reporting and writing the reports and all that stuff which people

hate right but you're not going to be successful if you're not good at that so so there are things that come up along the way that I think can be stumbling blocks and it's just up to us that the people who have been doing it for a little while to lend a hand when necessary I think that's going to help drive the industry forward

okay great great stuff alright so real quick I want to make sure we have time to ask a few more questions but real quick I have to ask you what your favorite stereotype or misconception is about information security or people that work in information security and and though you've heard them and you may be preaching to the choir with the with the audience today but I would love to know what your favorite one is / least favorite of course so I have I have two one is just my favorite I'm not going to dive into and then I'm second one that I can actually talk about but for the first one my favorite stereotype is this

we think we all know this one the hacker yeah but the second stereotype that is a little bit more meaningful to me is the one that information security professionals know and do it all is that misconception that we are experts in everything I think really leads to a lot of security professionals Corning you know very quickly because we just get drug through the mud I can't really relate that back to diversity and inclusion because the entire security field probably feels that pain and that's certainly one thing that I have struggled with but it is another thing that is contributed to my my consumption of learning one thing that we can do to overcome that misconception is really

again just kind of shine the light on on what InfoSec is and what the professionals really do and so for me just the kind of jack-of-all-trades is is that's that's big when I struggle with this in this industry crying yeah my favorite starett's how it really has to be with everyone think you were hackers I don't know what that's about I clearly don't have the skill set to hacker creating with system at this moment at this moment but I mean every time I explain my role it seems like just like I've friend's house their their internet went down there like hey Carla can you fix that like no does it look like I troubleshoot stuff so they it's always like that

either I am a troubleshooter or I'm a hacker and I'm neither one of those I am NOT someone who understands the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek don't hate me for that guys I get it don't hate me I hear that enough at work but I mean I'm not the one who's going to spin up F Society or anything either so please stop assuming baggage but I mean I think the one thing we can do is actually just keep talking about it continue to tell our friends talk about it and that's that's the same way that we've gotten through many many misconceptions of a lot of topics and the more people talk about it the more

we're promoting and the more we're doing things like these conferences it's gonna really help yeah I would I would say that my favorite one is definitely the the hacker and the hoodie in his basement all night with the matrix going on with all the screens right that's literally how how things look and yeah thank you Hollywood for for pushing that perception right and it's not like that at all we all have families we all have other hobbies outside of computers that we like to do I find myself just finding other things just it's kind of step away from it because you cannot do that a hundred percent of the time and I think the perception is you do which is not

the case at all so yeah that's nice that's my favorite one and just the other thing that I think is a challenge is when someone asked me more keys what do you do I struggle to answer that question because I'm you know I don't want to over distill it into [Music] oversimplify it but at the same time it is a complicated job you know as a security consultant an architect so and I could I could say yes I hope people build our textures for sim stop software and I know the next question is what kind of architecture is that like bridges and what is it sim right so it's it's it's it's hard to explain as load I think

that's part of the challenge right so I think the both the complexity of the industry and that that misconception that you see in the media and in Hollywood kind of contributes to how people perceive security professionals can I can I say one more thing on that with what marques just said I think there's also the people who just come into our InfoSec dude we have a misconception to and it's there's only one job we're only doing this and they as you meet more people you start to understand there's niches within a niche within a niche just like he said he's doing Splunk and he's doing architecture with this book and we don't understand that there's so much more that goes in

so whatever you're looking for I'm almost positive you'll find it but you just have to meet the right person to guide you to how to get there and so that you can use your skill sets who really make a difference and sometimes when people come in they get stuck in a song they forget that this isn't where you will be if you're not happy here learn new skills meet new people network I've never heard a better advice is to continue to keep in touch with your networks don't think you're better than them you're no one is smarter than anyone in this field you can always learn something from someone out there thank you for staying out that more Kisa

slow I have to say I'm totally formerly guilty so when I was married I'm divorced now too but when I was married my husband at the time worked in information technology not even security and I would have various random problem with my computer and I would call him up and I would be like hey babe but such as such such as such and he'd be like well did you google it and I would be highly offended you know I would be like that's not supportive [Music] in-house IT department and he's like I do this it has nothing to do with that google it as it turns out you can find a lot on Google you fix a lot of stuff yourself

and it's an interesting thing anyway next question for y'all so diversity initiatives you often hear about the

sorry thank you we often hear whatever see initiatives about the recruiting aspect of it right how do we get more diverse talent into the field but I know from my work and research says that retention is really critical that's where you really start to make a difference with diversity equity and inclusion because as marques was saying earlier it doesn't do a lot of good when people are either attracted to the field or even make it into the field and then they leave right so what can we do to really foster retention how does retention plan to this what is needed to keep diverse populations those diverse thought processes in the field that's another great question I am all I

can say is continued inclusion I think e Y and partly you can probably speak to this too does a great job with helping diversity groups throughout the company and there in most locations and it is it's just an ongoing connection to people with some backgrounds from you that you can kind of just reach out and connect to so there's a women in technology and ey I'm really ashamed to say I'm not a member of it but it is there it's there it's that ongoing inclusion that and you're right there's a lot of effort poured into to recruiting those those people with diverse backgrounds but once you get them into the company a lot of times

that this just walks along the way and then we're just kind of left stranded and to your own devices and in since the security field is not one that is hugely diverse at the moment you can kind of feel like you're on an island sometimes and knowing that you have somebody there that has similar experiences that you can reach out to and just connect with I think that would make a big difference in retaining that that diverse group people I mean I agree with you Kelly ey has been wonderful with it I mean even in regards to people with different religious practices I see you know our teams allowing people to go out at certain times to practice the hangers

and stuff so I will say that I'm so appreciative of how amazing you are has been when it comes to diversity and acceptance in inclusion as well but just like we were we were kids and teenagers we tend to we tend to connect with people that we have some similarities with right and Kelly's right it's you you should probably you know have some sort of program that allows people to connect with people with this at least some sort of similarities member Garcia background preferences or whatnot and you know we have our own set of problems that like mark he said we want someone to talk to I mean I have presidents viber now and they're like oh I'm so

glad I have someone who's talking about this because there's no one else but what about the women who are struggling or what about you know the men of minorities instead we all have our own struggles and just because we don't talk about it publicly don't mean that we are not thinking about it so I agree that we we have to start coming up with better programs trainings and things like that for our people in different connections and ey it is good at it but other companies definitely need to do the same thing is coming up with different groups that we can connect within you know a chats and all these extra stuff for us to be able to speak to that men about

our stress that things like that yeah so it's all along with that I totally agree companies have an obligation to create those places they'll say spaces for different individuals who want someone to talk to I think that's a a really laid-back way to put it someone to talk to I'm gonna I'm gonna start using that and I to unfortunate to work with an organization that puts an emphasis on bringing your whole self to work and and not feeling like you have to color or sway yourself in any way and be open and honest about bringing your ideas to accomplish the collective objective and and we do have employee resource groups several actually at this point around

particular interests and backgrounds and I think what's really important about that is to open it up not just to the individuals in that particular group or representation but just people who are interested in helping as well their allies is super important and and have those spaces where you can come together and share and collaborate around the issues that matter to you and develop your own outreach and education to help bring more people in I think a good measure of success is how good is in the ERG at bringing in additional people and growing that membership and a facilitating that cause those efforts I think are really successful at retaining talent inside of an organization but

also attracting new talent so you know being able to say in the recruiting process that we do have an ERG and here's the membership and here all the events and initiatives that we took part in over the last few months that's probably especially for someone like me at least I'll speak for myself a huge selling point that that exists and is is important enough to the organization to sponsor both with leadership representation in the executive staff but also financially great to have special events just for this ERG and so we have black employees and mentors in swamp we have limited tech or women X now we have Philip in X we have neuro diversity so it's lots of different and I'm sure

I'm missing like two or three more tits it's it's becoming pretty pervasive and I think you're gonna see if your company doesn't have this yet it's coming soon this is not something that's a novel idea or something that only certain companies are getting involved in I think this is going to be universal and that's great and I hope to see more of it over over time I do want to say one more quick thing on that I'm gonna be in a white cheerleader for justice if the groups that they have encourage other people to join as well and so they bring everybody in and within the workspace they encourage everybody to just be who you are my lead

has a nose ring and got members on my team with tattoos and there's there's no exclusion they just welcomed they welcomed you as you are and they're not trying to botch up into just a packaged person that you can duplicate across the field they really not only recruit and preach diversity they they walk it out and just that's been that's been really wonderful to experience awesome yeah I know some Eni diversity folks and they're doing a lot of things really really well and that's a great thing we all have to model for each other what this should look like and toward that end let's talk a little bit about ally hood and so when I say Ally

hood I'm talking about hang on let me post the question here in the chat I'm talking about advocacy on the part of majority populations right and so most of us even if you are in a minority population are also in my majority population right so as a for example heterosexual woman I'm in the majority population with respect to LGBTQ plus initiatives and issues and so when it comes to ally hood in information security and before I ask you the question let me just make sure that everyone in the audience understands what I mean we all want to be I believe I'd like to think we all want to be good allies and so there's a difference in a

quiet Ally and true ally hood right the difference is coming up to you after a meeting and saying gosh Kelly that was like really messed up what they said to you or how they treated you or the fact that they they they didn't acknowledge your your contribution to the meeting so that's a crap quiet Ally true ally hood is an advocacy not just a sympathetic ear but an advocacy right that looks like me standing up in the meeting and going I believe that was Kelly's point right and so it is a an advocacy as opposed to a sympathy kind of situation so that being said understanding what ally hood is how important is it to

diversity equity and inclusion in general and information security but how is it how important is it to bringing majority populations on board and get them invested in the work that needs to be done with diversity another really great question and a really it's a topic that I've not personally thought about a huge amount until you just said it I experienced this especially in the technology field as a woman people look at me and they'll just automatically assume either don't know what talking about or that what I'm saying is invalid or that I'm making some kind of mistake there's there see but that was challenging to overcome I have had to prove myself I've had to cook my skill

my knowledge face and I've had to be really assertive and if I had some really public advocate's from early on that would not have been so challenging for me to earn my place and that's very much what I had to do so yes speak up no just because we're diverse and we're from different backgrounds does not mean that we do not have anything going on here and we can't bring something to the table and having somebody on my side standing up publicly saying hey listen up yes this is this is right knows what she's talking about this is a good opinion that would have been nice from the beginning I have it now he's not what I've proved myself and

that might be something that everybody experiences so I'm not not male obviously I don't know what that background looks like but for me that that's what I experienced and that might just be an opinion that that I could chat with other diverse populations and see if it's a valid one or not I don't know I feel like I have to prove myself especially in the technology field and I feel like I'm coming from from under the table I have to get my chair just hit alongside everybody else yeah I am I guess I'm a minority within a minority I'm an Asian woman within the field and it's definitely a lot harder I can't speak for anyone else no one

else's personal experience world we all have our own stories to tell and it it was it was really hard especially me coming from a non-technical background so I remember every job I've started I've had to you know prove that I'm worthy of the spot I would stay an hour or two after work to continue to learn to continue to work go home and continue to train you know I was in and eating being a mother apparently you know that was a taboo to talk about during interviews and and I said no to that no you're gonna know I have a child you're gonna know what benefits I want out of this job and that I feel like being I

think that I had to learn how to be so assertive for myself now when I see someone who is you know a little bit weaker per se just because they don't understand why K you could fight for yourself I will do it for them now I will go to the meetings I will say no that was not appropriate you shouldn't say stuff like that or I would tell them you know with the person in the room hey no don't do that that was not an appropriate joke don't talk about that you have to understand how sensitive people are or you have to understand what's okay to someone and what's not you have to know your place and maybe

it's because I have a you know I have kids now or maybe it's because I grew up you know already a minority and I had to do this for myself already you know I didn't actually understand how to be assertive until I was about 30 and I'm so happy that I'm able to pass pass along my experiences and to help people and to tell them hey you can do this don't worry about what people are thinking because if they truly care about you don't understand where you're coming from and it's I don't I it's probably a no not to say this but I don't care if you're a CEO and the company or not if it's a character that

you bring to the table is you're at in your words so if you're not in a person then you have very little respect for me in general anyway so you so I will not be afraid to speak my mind about that what I think that you did was not appropriate you know and I I feel like that helps bring out a hood and I feel that more people should be doing stuff like that don't be afraid because the worst thing that they you're always afraid you're gonna lose your job or the other on the other hand is people would gain more respect for you and they will understand not they can't push you around so you know it's one of those

gamble that you have to take and I feel better about myself even if I was fired for speaking up at least I did it for something good and plus it's security why not we have jobs so yeah my perspective on this is a little different and I really want to break it down and talk to you about unconscious bias something that I had to educate myself on and it really makes sense and so you never heard that term before I encourage you to take a look into it but let's assume that we're at KSU Center right now and we're in a room or we're about to enter a room in the conference with hundreds of people

in it and you walk in in your little late and you're looking around and there's only a few seats available and you don't really know anybody in the conference room so you're choosing where to sit and you see someone who you don't know if you know them or not maybe you want to school this person maybe a little like they're from your company and so you choose to sit there as opposed to anywhere else right there's a little bit of bias and why you made the decision and we all have that right but you need to understand that because we all have that certain decisions are made for better or worse right and it's no

one's fault it's human nature right and we I'm gonna go back to what I said earlier we all want someone to talk to we want to have a sense of belonging we want to be able to lean on someone especially with something as complex as this industry it's nice to have someone to advocate for you to give you a leg up or a shoulder to cry on or additional information and mitts for you and once you realize that it made you feel a little bit better about sitting in that location in the in the conference room or in the conference hall wherever you happen to be realize that if you offer that same sort of

support to someone who's friendly and it makes you feel a little bit more comfortable that goes a long way you can have that same feeling in other scenarios as well so our ally good and our having an ally in in the workplace is is critical and I gotta say you know Kelly's experience and Carla's experience is it's very common even today right where they do not have Pai also had the same problem as well and we all had to on our own kind of pull ourselves up and be assertive and prove that we deserve to be in the room and prove that we had that knowledge and an expertise and we could yearly here and

then that kind of respect kind of comes along with it and I'm you know when you're just getting started it's really difficult to do that and it would be nice to see more universally people step out and be an advocate and an ally now I don't want to discount the fact that it happens every day that people are stepping out and doing that but we definitely have more work to do and that respect and the other thing I'll add real quick is you may never know how much of a positive impact you have by doing that you could literally change someone's life by speaking up in that conference room or offering a set of links to go study

or or handing someone that old CSCS is people you know to took a look at and study through or answering their questions about things they get tripped up on in programming there's all kinds of different ways that maybe small and insignificant to you but makes the world of difference to that in visual I you know what Marquis I agree with you and I will say to this day I still try to think the people at each of my job that have touched me in different ways that that have made an influence and that I've considered a mentor and I remember bringing that up to someone I work with just last week and they said I don't

remember that but you know thanks but yet every little bit of fee that you do for someone touches them and they coat it in and it makes them continue to grow so you impact somebody all of your actions impact someone I really I wanted to agree with that too for me my mentors in this field have both been men I shall create them and it I think it was their encouragement and their lack of bias that we're gonna gave me the courage to just dive headfirst into this and in one of those is one of the organizers Andy green and I just want to give a shout out to him he gets a lot of crap especially people they've

got their glasses but he's he's a big supporter of diversity and inclusion and made a big difference for me when I first got into this absolutely and I can attest to that as well so we are at time and I just want to thank the panelists for being with us here today I want to thank the organizers of the event and of course all of our sponsors this has been a truly excellent conversation if you have questions we're gonna head over to slack the panelists and myself to address those questions in that venue but for now we will sign off with our thanks for your attendance today take care everybody