Closing Panel - Panel Discussion

thank you all for coming to the last session of today uh hope you've had a very good day and that's my very proper teaching voice um would the panelists like to introduce themselves and confirm that your name is actually above your head no it's okay D you can introduce here are five people who are going to talk about cyber security there's one person two person three people yeah that's my introduction would you like to introduce yourself [Music] I work for security company sheit Menace in this industry to be fair little bit backg myself this year years Prof my name is H Compu worried about my computer um hi h of XP but also the games so I'm here

with my scen and my side 25 in cyber security and [Music] recovering my name is I'm the C of cation cyber actually 11 years ago was my tutor the master loved it never really left so got this year Ed bit now

hi I'm and I'm the co been in cider for over 20 years Shing out now back before it was called CER Des the first actually in 2004 spp called internet computer and system security awesome thank you very much so first question with without naming any specific brands or um technology companies if you had a magic wand what would you what would be the one thing you would change about the subed industry can I immedately comp yes not password advice elitism and fascination with all things military we see headlines all the time about things like ethical hackers are launching cyber missiles against adversaries even things like times red team team come from things like US Air

Force I I get it we want to be cool with things like that but we don't have to say things like the front lines of the Cyber War absolutely K from an El things like how we romanticize red teaming above everything in somewhat look down on the blue team and yeah it kills me we're not in competition with ourselves we are all of the same key so my magic one is sling down heavily on anybody else yeah I think that kind of between what people called soft skills we called impact skills and technical skills like it's either of or that was a cimin between one and the other actually the skills the valuable department so I get rid of

that um it's along similar lines but it's some of the stupid py [ __ ] that we ar about like the whole there's an argument in the week about like should C so been technical but seriously I'm like what do you mean by technical they have hard skills yes exactly I mean he's like putting down a bread roll in this room and asking you what it's all called and I will leave that

there coming from a military career of 12 Years start [ __ ] doing military [ __ ] in this industry pisses me off I only did six so I'm half as angry I I think I'm going to be a bit more practical here but in terms of when we are testing um organizations and they actually able to fix the things that we find um so that we can eliminate a lot the probabilities um and also the obsession with certifications as well that's another one yeah thanks

mic conversation the entry level for this industry needs to change legit to the audience I I don't know where to go whatever whatever whatever make the [ __ ] level as there's aot of people want work [ __ ] work please I think they way the industry is presented really puts off a lot of people like we we've been doing for a long time lot work with schools and it justs that the perception of the industry is often just an anatom to them they just don't want to engage with with it because of the way it's presented not just by the community but also on TV and other media which is all about hopefully the hacking games will fits for us um so

talking about the talent point I Segway very well queed up how do you think we should be developing the talent we need going forward me this my team is personally cultivated I realize that might demand a lot of my time as a day labor but it's time I'm willing to put in because of my t it's my name on the T so that's the way I would work around that I would rather cultivate Talent than have it there to that I think presenting our also saw him early on so even like that Primary School stage the project creting cyes making a bit more interesting for kids to be able to look it from L stting

at the beginning and having that sort of approach where you able to take people in without any actual real experience and experience [Music] kdom I think uh this is that I because doing a lot of events gu people often ask me like how you get into cyber security I think the difficulty is identifying that the words coming out of their mouth aren necessarily the question that they won't answer to so they may be in fact saying how can I get into cyber security and you'll start me down a about my experience and I did a master that's not actually what we're looking for I think sometimes it's just that awareness of this person who is

engaging with me what is the pr that they're actually trying to ask me and if they're asking things okay you going into cyber security of course those personal stories in and inspiring but explaining to them that there's a different way there are many manys I think you know just person awar yeah I think most people speak to say they work SE turn into it somehow I don't know many people actually W up it kind of just seemed to happen I think REM SM from those as well I think it can be an incredibly warm in terms of developing talent I think it's making for people are kind of entering into the sector it's actually making use of those networks and that

people actually want to help you um and just become involved I I think get rid of the smoke and the all be Happ all the problems break it down into what it actually is a job it's a great job it's six different great jobs there probably something you need for everybody it's sometimes just I'm not thinking got the perfect everybody I think I give a horrible answer that question it's no of no value to anyone other than I think it's quite funny that I was a travel agent so kids going be travel agents and you will have a fantastic not um you do find a reason like that I mean I was the travel AG agent for a

cyber security company I happen to know bit about computers so that's the real truth is I had a computer when I SCH years old um and none of us have time machines but the truth in this is that not everyone is it's is going to follow the university path and nor is it right for them and for those of us who want to cross trade into the industry when we're older even taking time out of the cost involved to go back to University at lat dat this doesn't work for everybody nor we all academically in time does that mean we have nothing to offer AB there's so many groups in I think that's you said about

certifications you said about you know this you don't have to come from background you don't have to be a travel agent but I know one other [Music] person or in this room um Trac Sher that lady was also yes actually was wrong I'm sorry we have to think of other ways in to get kids in to get adults in and it can't just be well have you got these 17 Sears and have you been to University for 74,000 years thank you very much okay so given all of that one of the things I boringly track is the jobs Market because students coming on the course want to know about what their jobs and future careers are

there is a massive bound of jobs that specify two to three experience and no jobs at the very entry level right so everybody's saying we've got lots we need lots and lots of talent but nobody seems to be providing the pathways into that employment how do we solve that problem that's not on the list of official questions so I'm just interested to know I just car on yeah complicated stuff I think you decided to make the S especially and and in security almost too difficult because you have to understand those tools or you have to be by data space ad to be able to get any joy out of love files and and if you can't do that then I'm

sorry about you you can't possibly come work in the scam because how the hell you had body so we've got the wrong tooling going on got the wrong constraints on people around metrics and what's expected and we've got this mad ging mentality we're not going to see anything to change so it's got to be a combination of things so even if it's getting people into coming shadowed for a day and just getting their experience you know one day at a time rather than saying like unless you've got 10 years of experience that you can't ever get you can't come and start work as an entry level person that logic is I think for me it's just Basics and

looking at the person's ability work ethic that they want to be there and able to commit to the learning when going through the process whether graduate or serious person you they willing to put the the work in to be able to you know go go on the journey the organization I think it is difficult for organization like ourselves where you got clients who want testers who have to have certain Badges and experience and things like that you're in a difficult position um but I think the approach which we're now taking people should do is is actually build for the future and have an academy to start the the journey early on so that you're molding them and be able to

prepare them and getting ready for the role that you want organization I think there are multiple ways to kind of get in as well you know you said no ENT leveles I think are ENT entry level roles but there also Senor level roles it's not kind of diminishing your transal skills as well kind of acknowledging that they have value and you might be entry level into certain elements of cyber but you've lived and you've got the work experience to bring I also think there are multiple ways to do it you can do it in your way in the way that suits you and don't tell you it's wrong and you know whatever that way looks like there are mple

ways I think allels but it is like say that kind of M of you need three years experience to to go into an entry I think the whole recruitment process at times is difficult I think one of the things on that point be um be more open to the idea of collaboration I think something that Z mention there about people like to hold certifications be like look this all these certifications and be more open to the idea of like teams being involved on Project you don't need individual Heroes it makes it easier to hire those gen positions the entry level positions because you don't need somebody you can do everything if that person can contribute to a team then that's a

better better way to open up those positions and when next for the most part sorry so I can speak my experience very very often they work Sol projects individual and being more of to collation hey may be putting two people on that also applies the business side of things as well you don't necessarily need to look unic candidates who do everything you can hire two people for that role different experiences I think we have maybe a little bit problem on the business side of things um you have two people's worth of job to do but you will put one person in that role at work to burn

out to touch on this I think uh events like this network a massive position IND training quick uh to speak of recent experience the most recent addition my team some it's transfer from a different industry in this he did that connected with me I got you I was it wasn't bi was me but that was basically how we managed to the job he got that point from to get through a little bit not necessarily guante get so thatw events like L where you speak to people who might not be high the minut eventually Market isass it's great I mean from my own perspective thinking about the students that gone through the programs that we've got here you're right you don't

need a univers listen you don't need a don't need a University degree to do this job you just need that creative curiosity that like that urgency to solve problems that are in front of you that willingness to dig into the problems and combine all that knowledge together to come up with something cool right that helps you fix that that challenge but it's interesting looking at the the industry I I was speaking to a large industry company and they were saying we want graduates to have these particular technical skills and you must produce these particular technical skills and I'm like no no no like we want to have instill that Crow of creative problem solving I spoke to the

same people a month literally a month later they went no no no not those skills they need to have these skills right and I'm like they're on a three-year program like you can't come to me every month and change what you want and and I think there's often a little bit of Disconnect between um one of the reasons why we have that disconnect is the industry changes its mind so quickly about what it wants when we we we we people have committed to a three-year program but uh moving on hary mentioned burnout you're thank you it's almost like you seen the earlier questions uh question ear uh I mean it is one of the things that I have

seen with some of my previous graduates and um just generally kind of widely reported in the industry that it can be high pressure High Press job leading to a lot of burnout and some of that comes from all I I think feeding the fire of that passion right and over over burning it you're right just pushing those people too far how are we going to get around that as an industry in a community what should we be doing immedately so right it plays a lot of different so mainly it's communication know the limits managers know the limits of their tap and then the business having the capabil given those te the time to either recruit kind of

responsibilities it's that but spread out T of million basically the pross the entire industry is what needs to change is it just Mally individual topics but it's a combination of those things and again depends on how your company play Same easy I think as well on top of that a real cultural sector cultural issue and it needs to change fromp down think you can see your your BX and your boss's BX clocking off making sure the saying that these hours you know I might work late but they D to be hours there's no expectation I making that really explicit because people need that balance otherwise like can burn out any but actually eally it's not the right

way to go I think having that some I'm know about role modeling and I think having some visible can say I am going at 4:30 are I need to set this time off to do whatever this is and having that in a seni position saying thatly making sure that that is [Music] the encourage people to be able to comine themselves by something outside of this industry if your entire personality is focused on your title of this industry you will burn out that's it we actually see this in the military as well where people join the military and being in the military is their entire personality it will end Bly don't really care what it is you like anything

to Jo and rescue honestly anything other than staring at a computer tell you're curious you have the reason I chose the encourage because of course we can take that as as an individual value something we can look at ourselves but exactly what what you said there by um people look up to other people need the people look at their PE and those kinds of things if we are encouraging other people to get a freaking hob that doesn't involve chat at a computer I think we'll get to back I think the organization also need to take some powerfulness as well because you're investing in right processes and setting the right expectations with your PE um you know making sure me things AR

overrun to simple things like that and being realistic about deadline it's always right going to be but just having that expectation will go way as well keep and provid

support

support controvers um yeah we've also got to problem ourselves right we can say yes organizations need to give us time I need to make sure they mys at the same time like JY switching off but when was the last time any of you truly switch like went for a walk without looking at your phone left your phone at home nice there's something about being slightly older yeah that we probably do probably have seen the burnout [Music] see it's true though it's really to do we think if we put work down and go play a game or sit tell on or G scroll our phones somehow we switch and your stress chemicals don't go down you live with

this this kind of Sunny State a lot of like PE get here again actually now and it can take a minute this is going to sound a bit stupid but stay with me um an executive coach it's just make M does good neuro coach stuff right don't stay at the wall for one minute you'll think I'm B saying this but look at the wall every time work tries to squeeze into your head push it back push it back it's like being cleaned out let that stress go down that's all you got time for just to try and switch off just one minute give it a go maybe not in the street see how you get on

um he I was like what talking about it really helps if you can take 20 minutes you can put that time your diary get 10 get out and look at the outside world put it into your work diary I have have done it and also if you're doing everything you're doing nothing I guil as an expert multitask all the time where you can I know it's it's not easy in every job if you can start a Tas and finish a job feel much better you can't finish it in say 90 minutes leave it in mid sentence you get that feel back it up again if you've got 57 minuts open and you're like oh [ __ ] there's an email

and text and this and Ted's going and you want a call you trying to listen to webinar you're doing nothing and all you're doing is hurt yourself so like trying to get that focus in justly well staring at the wall sounds like slightly better strategy mind which is screaming into the void so uh we have a fantastic set of people here um would somebody like to ask some questions Yes Rick so we're talking about ENT level into the security industry and everything like that uh back in my Dayo um the debate was there is no clear pathway into security and now the universities such as University sorry people University such as have made clear Pathways and we've

got organizations that are setting up kind of charted Pathways um things like why is that now a problem why is now having a degree that career problem why and say no not need diversify Pathways okay um it may be linked to what I mentioned earlier in regards to theism where although we have worked very hard to develop multiple packs for some reason as an industry always have to find one that we can hold at the top and say this is the correct pack this is the one so I think around that [Music] con I would say well if you're only looking Place one type of person that's all you can get one type of person

actually there are so many different people and Cy I guess a society problem as much as anything else solutions that represent Society so I wouldn't say un wrong I would say it's not that's point you you have to have that to be able to do that I think there are multiple ways to do it and each way is just as solid and it brings that diversity and no and interesting Solutions so I say it's [Music]

not I believe univ degrees is a necessity in the workplace is a very and again the fact that we've come so far different Pathways now there's almost is with graduate there is that expectation 2 years experience experience us what for me [Music] my make access EAS to get access to with that's the nature I think it's probart release the kind of career path um and I think do when you look at solicitor or account those kind of professions you're looking to standardize profession profession to clear view of how do you get from a to z um because there are organiz [Music]

this is what we think is the right path um so yeah it's one of those where it's not the only path that atast standard way things

but I do think some people seeing a something drawn out as an option for them make sense but if we then say that is the only gr and and then we're expecting diversity across many ches of diversity um then we're not going to get it we're going to get very specific could people coming through and what this industry needs is creativity and need diversity thought and need diversity background ideas you can't solve a problem with the same mindset that cre it um it's really important that so that is an option but be I mean you know turns out that is the way forward at the same time University doesn't for a it just doesn't exams

don't work for everybody some people can be super smart and be creative and really understand the concept you stick a bit of paper in front of them their brain is going to turn to much but they can still absolutely be part of this industry and will bring something different to the people who look at exam paper and just go like so yeah you've got to have different options so I'm just going to going wrap it up but I'm just going to observe I don't you all talked about the people coming through I don't think the standardization certifications are actually about people in any way sh form it is about the industry waking up we' got the cyber security industry the wi

industry waking up saying cybercity is important but we don't understand it so what signals can we find so that we can get good people to come in because we don't know how to assess what is good and then we look for other things like citation and then ultimately when somebody screws up a test or something and doesn't find a bug and you know plane crashes or something where are we going to get the insurance from how are we going to you know you know how how as an industry can we protect against those types of faes because if a building collapses you can see the architect right because they W charted or whatever and it's it's it's

not about the people coming through it's about the industry consuming our services can we ever show hands if you have any kind of degree or degree any kind ofree said that word that's surprising good way I saw a lot yeah that was sorry say 90% yes to that question right well thank you very much for our esteemed panelists [Applause] h